The exact date of this interview is unknown.

Good evening, and welcome to “Open Up”. Tonight’s subject is UFOs. Now, here’s your host, Bill Tush.

We have what we hope is going to be a real interesting subject this morning on “Open Up”—we’re going to be talking about UFOs and with us are two authors, Mr. Don Elkins and Miss Carla Rueckert. They have written this book, Secrets of the UFO 1, and we’re going to talk about just about everything we can about UFOs and the latest developments and the latest sightings. I think it’s a timely subject, now that we have movies like Close Encounters, and I think one of the networks is putting on the series about UFOs.

You just came back from Mexico today, is that right?

Yes, that’s right.

What was the purpose of that trip?

Well, the purpose of the trip was actually medical research—paranormal medical research. But the secondary purpose—we did a little bit of investigating with respect to UFOs. We talked to several people who had communications from UFO sources and we have found that there are people all over the world now that have these alleged communications from UFO sources that match the material that we got from the people in Mexico. It correlated precisely with the material that has been communicated for the past 30 years, approximately.

You do have another job besides—a job where you pick up a paycheck, that finances what you do here? This is all on your own, so when you take a trip to Mexico, it’s all out of your own pocket?


How did you and Carla get involved in this? That’s what we’d like to find out.

Well, in 1962 when I was in college, Don was a professor. He asked some selected students of his if we would like to try a little experiment. We didn’t know very much about the experiment when we started, but what it ended up to be was an experiment which is described in our book.


Yes, having to do with attempting to contrive or manufacture the type of contactee information that Don had been collecting for years from all over the world. The experiment was incredibly successful from the point of view of collecting the same type of data without us students knowing anything about it previously, and it intrigued me so much that I kept up with his work. And in 1970 I went to work for him full time and have been with him ever since.

Now, do you have another job besides this?

No, I don’t any more.

So you’re both working as a team. Don, you’ve been involved with this for a long time.

Yes, about 25 years. I’d like to add something about this Mexico trip. As I say, the primary purpose of this trip was medical research but it’s of a paranormal type and it’s UFO-related. I got into this as a result of the study of UFOs.

Quite a few people know today that there’s a thing called psychic surgery. It’s primarily done in the Philippines. Surgeons go into the body barehanded and pull out bloody parts. There’s a lot of controversy about this. So we went to Mexico to investigate a healer that operates with a Bowie knife, no antiseptic, no anesthetics, cuts into the body and performs surgery. We observed several operations and were both operated on ourselves.

You? What for?

Carla had a kidney transplant and I had a very minor operation.

This was just performed?


As a matter of fact it was performed less than 100 hours ago.

A kidney transplant?

He even took a picture before we came down with a Polaroid camera so you could see the fresh scars—I hope your stomachs are strong!

Here are the scars. We took the pictures about three hours ago.

There were actually two operations.

[Carla points to the top scar on the Polaroid photograph of her back.]

This was the first one. This Mexican peasant lady says to me in Spanish through an interpreter, “I’ll just take out your kidneys, wash them off and put them back, and if they’re not good enough, I’ll take the two halves, put them together and transplant a new one in the other side.” Which is exactly what she did. The top fading scar was done about two weeks ago and four days ago she did the transplant.

There was no sort of anesthesia at all involved?

No, there was nothing, though the healing, you can see, is very far advanced.

I don’t know what this has to do with UFOs, but this is a fascinating thing in itself.

Well, this a very advanced part of UFO research—you get into all kinds of things when you start with UFOs.

I mention that because the UFO phenomena is very far reaching. The UFO phenomena actually led me into this type of research.

[Don indicates a manila envelope containing cotton wool used in the operation.]

This is going to London, I’m going to mail it at the airport tonight. It goes to a medical doctor who was present at the surgery Wednesday night. He left for London yesterday and this will catch up with him 2.

Is surgery like that legal in America?

It’s not legal almost anywhere, which is why we haven’t said too much about the specifics. This kind of healing, although it has existed for many years, has not been recognized by the medical profession in an orthodox sense, although medical people all over the world are working hard to bring all of this kind of healing into one barn.

Well, it’s obvious if you had a kidney transplant you must have had some major health problems.

Oh yes. I’ve been on disability for a year with arthritis, and the arthritis came from kidney failure when I was 13. An interesting part of this healer—and this is true of many healers like this—is that when I came to her with arthritis, she didn’t even listen to me. She went straight for the kidneys. She said, “All your troubles are coming from the kidneys.” Diagnosis, everything, from a simple peasant lady who couldn’t possibly know.

Now, how did she get the ability to do this? Does this have something to do with involvement with UFOs?

This is one of things that we’re investigating.

Let me back up now and show you how this connects to the UFO phenomena. Dr. Andrea Puharich is a medical doctor. He wrote the book Uri, about Uri Geller. The book Uri is primarily about UFO contact. Dr. Puharich is the leader of a medical team investigating the healer in Mexico. We have been with him. He was present and observed both Carla’s surgery and the surgery on myself. We believe that both surgical operations have been successful but we will know for sure in a few months 3.

Now, the paranormal healing phenomenon is related to the UFO phenomena very, very closely. If you study UFO literature you will find that in a large number of cases miraculous healings occur when a person is either in close contact with a UFO or taken on board a UFO. I’ll give you a few examples.

An 80 year old Argentinean, who had no teeth at all, was in close contact with a UFO—a bright light was shining and he subsequently grew a third set of perfect teeth.

A highway patrolman in Louisiana had an alligator bite him and he came in close contact with a UFO and instantly the alligator bite healed.

A doctor in France had a cut on his leg, a very deep cut with an axe, and a bright light from a UFO shined on his leg, actually it was over his entire body, but the leg healed instantly without a scar.

A hunter in the west was taken on board a UFO and after he returned from this alleged journey, he was examined in a hospital and found to have no tuberculosis scars. He had had very bad tuberculosis scars in the lungs prior to the encounter.

This is repeated and repeated and repeated, over and over again. Part of a deep investigation of the UFO phenomena includes the healing phenomenon and that’s what led us to Mexico.

Now, how did this little peasant lady find out she had the ability to do this? What’s her story?

All of these stories are fantastic and so far out of the normal range that it’s very difficult to get into a total explanation. But to make a long story short, she claims that when she is in the altered state of consciousness, a voice speaking through her claims to be Quetemoc, son of Moctezuma. Quetemoc is a discarnate entity that works through the woman and takes over her body and actually does the surgery.

Dr. Puharich was allowed to pull the knife out of a patient—this just happened last week. He grabbed the knife—and he has a very calibrated pull; he’s practiced—and he pulled half a pound, and nothing happened. Then he put on a pound, still nothing happened. He got up to ten pounds before the knife came out. He said it was as though it was held in the body by a magnet.

When she did the kidney transplant, she put the knife in the body, slit through the entire back, made a slit for the kidney, placed the kidney beside the knife blade and the kidney was drawn into the body as by a vacuum.

Now, you were awake this whole time?

I certainly was. It hurt a lot, actually. It’s not like bare-handed psychic surgery, where there’s almost no pain. There seems to be a different process working here. We’re still working on the theory of the process of it and we’ll have a lot more work to do but there seems to be more of a blend between magnetic fields in what the Chinese might call “the electrical body,” or some people call “the finer body,” or “the astral body,” and the physical body, so that the field is more joining the two and things are actually happening in the physical body as well as the electrical body. That’s probably why it hurts and that’s probably why she uses a knife.

Now, where was this operation performed?

In Mexico.

In her home?

Yes, in her home.

Are there any governmental officials around that see this?

This is a ticklish subject—I can’t really talk about that. There was a government official present. There were three Mexican doctors. There was a doctor from London and Andrea Puharich from New York, who is a medical doctor. It is a fringe area of legality.

Was the government official there an American?

No. It was a Mexican official and I can’t mention his name.

You must understand that these things are well understood by many doctors who bring their patients to healers like this all over the world, and yet since the official picture is such that there are actually laws against practicing medicine without a license, you can’t become too publicized and talk too much about it because you will not only damage the healer but cause them to go completely out of business.

Weren’t you really afraid to go through a thing like this? I mean this is a major operation, a kidney transplant. And where did the kidney come from that you received?

That’s another cause for conjecture. We looked all over and couldn’t find one through our normal medical sources and then the healer simply had one and Dr. Puharich theorizes that she materializes them.

Strange. We’ve got to get to the phones—there are a lot of calls. Line 4?

Well, that was just my question, where did the kidney come from, but also I’d like to know if either one of these people have had any personal experiences with UFOs.

I’ve personally seen two UFOs. I know a UFO when I see it. I don’t count something that is not identified, I’ve seen a lot of things I couldn’t identify, but I’ve only seen two UFOs that were definitely UFOs.

I’ve performed an experiment with over 100 people in fabricating what I would call telepathic contactees. A very large percentage of these people have seen UFOs shortly after going through a training program that we developed.

What exactly did you see when you saw a UFO?

Well, I saw a white disk make a 45-degree turn at a very high velocity with a zero radius. This is a UFO. We don’t have any aircraft that make zero-radius turns. It was relatively close. I was flying, myself, at the time in the cockpit at approximately 33,000 feet.

I also observed another high-altitude UFO making right-angle turns at high speed over the desert, approximately over Albuquerque, New Mexico. This was observed for 15 minutes.

I’ve been present when several other observations were made that I personally didn’t see but were witnessed by several good observers that were in the area.

Carla, how about you? Have you ever come across a UFO?

As a matter of fact, as long as I’ve been in this research full-time I never have seen a UFO. Once I saw a wonderful lighted, what looked like a disk, coming down close to me and I thought “I’ve finally seen it.” Then it flashed out like a little computer: “I am not a UFO, I am the Goodyear Blimp.” So I’m still waiting for my first one. I’ve seen things I couldn’t explain but like Don, I feel too deeply about the subject, and feel they are real, simply to say I saw a UFO because I saw something I couldn’t quite make out.

What do you say to somebody that just comes up and says “I don’t believe in any of that?” What’s your first argument?


That’s all right. I don’t have an argument. If you don’t want to believe in UFOs, fine. If you’re interested in it I’ll tell you anything that I know.

Interestingly enough, J. Allen Hynek, who is a fantastically great researcher and who has done a lot of really sound work in this field, sent a questionnaire out to about 100 scientists recently. At the top of the questionnaire was a small fact sheet about one or two pages long which described some of the well-known sightings. Then there was a questionnaire and the question was, “Have you ever heard about any of this and are you interested in knowing more?”

All of the scientists that replied said they didn’t know and that they would love to hear more. They were astronomers who didn’t know these things were happening. And that’s the way most people are that don’t believe in UFOs. They really don’t know the data.

What percentage of these sightings are real? Because you always hear the old “swamp gas” theory.

I would say, of reported UFOs, a large percentage. I couldn’t say what percentage are weather balloons or normal phenomena. We’re not really interested in the ones that can be mistaken for something. The ones that I’m interested in are the ones that can’t be mistaken for anything but a UFO. Like a ship lands, an entity gets out, he talks to you and invites you into the craft, you go in, you have an experience, you get certain information from him. This happens so many times and is happening so often now that we don’t have to worry about whether it’s a UFO or a weather balloon, that’s unimportant.

When you say it happens so often, like what?

Well, about three years ago there were about 2,000 good cases like that and they’re increasing now. I get information from all over the world and every month we have two or three of these cases. Now, if you didn’t know anything about UFOs a lot of these cases would appear totally ridiculous. But after building up intelligence—this is just like working as a detective or an intelligence officer in the military, you build up your intelligence and then when you get a report you know what to look for. You know the questions to ask. You see that these things form a pattern. And you begin to recognize the puzzle pieces.

Years ago it took me a long time to fit a piece into the puzzle. Now each piece makes sense—it goes into the puzzle. Of course, every once in a while you get a piece that makes absolutely no sense at all. We don’t know whether that’s a hoax, invalid or whether it’s a new piece of data that we don’t know how to use yet.

What’s an example of what somebody sees when they get on the ship?

Well, I’ll give you the case of Sgt. Moody. This was two years ago at Alamogordo, New Mexico. He was out watching a small meteor shower, all by himself, in the desert, standing outside of his car, when a disk-shaped ship came down and landed in front of his car. He was scared to death, but he couldn’t move. Then an entity, about four and a half feet tall, got out, walked over to him, and touched him.

When the entity touched him, Sgt. Moody lost all fear. He then communicated, not verbally, but telepathically. And in 90% of the cases the entity communicates telepathically. He then took him on board the ship and Moody asked him to see the drive unit. He was taken down below and he was shown the drive unit. The way he described the drive unit was what I would have expected. It made sense from what I already knew.

Sgt. Moody was very, very reluctant to tell anybody about this. He found that he had to contact somebody and he contacted APRO, the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, in Tucson, Arizona. He is still keeping this covered up. He’s in the Air Force and is a career Air Force Sergeant. He doesn’t want the information out. Since there are a number of Sgt. Moody’s in the Air Force we’re not really giving away anything.

It would seem to me that if you came across something like this you’d be scared to death.

He was, he was. But the first thing that he said in the interview was when the entity touched him, he lost all fear. That’s a puzzle piece we know. This happens time and time again, so this is not surprising.

Another thing I’m wondering about is, if these people run into these different UFOs—I imagine each one is a little different, right? Where are they coming from—other planets? Do we know?

Well, first let me say that 60% of the humanoids reported that are occupants are approximately four and a half feet tall. They look like us. They have five fingers on their hands. They’re obviously not from Earth. If one got on the bus you’d know he wasn’t from around here.

Fourteen percent look enough like us that they could get on the bus and never be noticed.

Then the rest of the percentage varies from three feet tall up to 15 to 18 feet tall. It is a very wide range. We suspect that they come from several hundred different places in this galaxy and possibly outside the galaxy.

Now, the question that is always asked is, “How can they do this and why don’t they leave traces behind?” Well, they do leave traces behind. We have over a thousand landing-trace-evidence cases now, where landing traces have been examined. There are 80,000 bits of evidence in Northwestern University’s computer 4. When a ship lands, they can measure the tripod marks, or whatever marks it makes upon the ground, and from those marks they can tell what the ship looks like. They know what the witness is going to say before they interview the witness, simply by measuring the marks. There’s enough data now.

Now, who are we seeing that does all this measuring?

This is CUFOS, the Center for UFO Studies, headed by J. Allen Hynek.

This has nothing to do with the government?

No. J. Allen Hynek was a consultant on the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He is a professor of astronomy at Northwestern University. He was chief consultant to the Air Force from 1948 to 1968. He’s the Dean of UFOlogy in the United States.

Now, there is another aspect to the UFO. Since we don’t have too much time on the program I’ll just jump right in. The reason why these things are elusive and why they leave these traces and then we can’t track them down is that they not only come from different places in space, from our point of view, they come from different places in time. That is, there are more dimensions to time than are recognized by our contemporary society.

Physics, our modern physics, is recognizing this. It is definitely recognizing that there are more dimensions in time than we recognize normally. It’s not at all off the wall for an orthodox physicist in a university today to recognize the fact that the normal three dimensions of space and one of time, is not a correct solution to our universe. And so the fact that these ships travel not only in space but also in time, is logical.

Say, from the future back?

No, see it’s more than that. Just to say time has a past and future is not enough. You have to say that time has a field similar to space. If we can move three-dimensionally in space, we can move three-dimensionally in time. The craft have been photographed in such a way that evidence indicates that they are time travelers; that they are able, as far as we’re concerned, to travel the entire width of the galaxy in zero time, as far as we’re concerned. So we don’t have the limitation of say, light which goes at 186,000 miles per hour and it’s going to take forever, 100,000 years, to get across the galaxy.

We don’t even have to worry about them coming from another galaxy, if this theory is correct. And there are a lot of people now that are supporting this theory that these craft are, you might say “materializing” in our space just as a television picture materializes in your living room.

At the same time there are other channels. You have to face the fact that there are other channels. We’re sitting here on one channel and there are other realities, other fields of space/time.

You mean there will be a sighting in New Mexico for one period of time and then they’ll be another one in New York for another period of time?

No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that something appears into our reality and disappears. This is so often reported in UFO sightings. What’s happening is that they are simply switching channels. The UFO is coming into our channel of existence, if you will, and then leaving it.

I promise the phone callers, we’re going to get to you! But first we’ve got to take a break. We’re talking about UFOs, a lot of questions, a lot of calls, we’re going to get to them right after this.

[Station break and commercial.]

Here’s the book that is written by Mr. Don Elkins and Miss Carla Rueckert about UFOs.

[Bill holds a copy of the book up for the camera to see.]

We’re going to take a call from Line 2 on “Open Up”.

I wonder if you’ve found similarities between the Bible and UFOs?

Well, that’s not really my area of expertise. There have been several books written about the Bible and UFOs. We have done an extensive investigation of the communications allegedly from UFOs. Most of the communications have to do with what you would normally call religious concepts. They support concepts in the Bible quite a bit and I believe they explain quite a bit about some of the things that we don’t really understand about the Bible.

What would you do if a UFO came to you?

I would say, “Take me to your leader.”

Is that your goal? To come across a UFO?

No, I wouldn’t say that is my goal. My goal is to find out as much as I possibly can. Of course that would be one of the best ways and if I ever get the chance, I’ll make a beeline for the door.

Line 4, you’re on “Open Up”.

Since [your guests] knew Puharich, I want to ask them about “Spectra,” the spaceship that Geller was supposedly on, and about Geller supposedly being teleported in Ray Stanford’s car.

I know Ray. I know Uri. It all happened. I’ve seen objects move by themselves, I’ve seen bottles fly across the room, keys bend, all sorts of things happen. I’ve observed all these phenomena. Geller was teleported from in front of Dan Waddell’s apartment and I was just with Dan yesterday. Dan was also in Mexico. Geller disappeared and reappeared 35 miles north up at Ossining and fell through Puharich’s screen door.

As a matter of fact, he fell about nine feet up, almost to the top of the screening before the roof, and Dr. Puharich didn’t want to have it fixed. He kept saying, “I want it to show that it really happened,” but unfortunately, the other people working with him insisted on having it fixed.

We’re talking a lot about Uri—is that Uri Geller? Could we get a little background on just who he is?

Well, Uri Geller is the famed Israeli psychic who is able to bend metal. There is a lot of controversy about Geller and some people say he doesn’t do it mentally; he does it by trick. Well, that’s ridiculous, because we know of thousands of children that do it, age 7 to 15 or so, and they haven’t learned any tricks.

John Taylor, who’s a professor of mathematics at Kings College, London, has sealed metal strips inside of glass tubing, where there’s no way to get inside the tubing. He has the kids stare at it and tell it either to bend or break, and it bends or breaks. He’s done this time and time again 5. There are so many people around that can do the “Geller Phenomena” that it’s really old hat, and Geller happens to be the one who’s going around doing it on the stage. I have a key here in my pocket that Geller bent. He did this strictly by asking the key to bend and it bent.

Does he do a lot of concentrating on it?

No, it bends right away if the right people are around. If he gets a bunch of skeptics around he has more trouble. This type of phenomenon, it seems, is very dependent upon the observers in addition to the attitude of the person creating the phenomena. That’s why there’s so much controversy about Geller.

To give you an idea of how all this fits together, Geller is able to do healing, although it scares him and he doesn’t talk about it or do it in public, and, although he doesn’t like to talk about this either, his powers date from a UFO experience as a small boy.

He’s had all sorts of experiences with UFOs I imagine?

Geller’s experiences with UFOs started when he was three years old and then there was a gap that lasted until about 1972 when Puharich was with him in Israel, then they had a lot of UFO experiences and Andrea Puharich received several hundred communications allegedly from UFOs on his cassette tape recorder. The recorder buttons would go down themselves as if they were pushed by invisible fingers, and the recorder would run—he’d rewind it and play it back and there would be a message from a UFO. Now when I read the data, I knew that they weren’t joking, because since 1962, ten years earlier, I’d been involved in an experiment producing telepathic contactees and the information that we had correlated about 95% with the information that Andrea Puharich got on his tape recorder in Israel 6.

What kind of voice was it?

It was an English-speaking voice. Sometimes it sounded human; sometimes it made mistakes in grammar and sometimes it sounded somewhat mechanical or computerized.

How is it with all this stuff that goes on—so many people have made sightings, and people such as yourselves are firm believers in it, and spend your free time working with it—you told me earlier that your job is just secondary, that the only reason you work at all is just to make money to continue your research. Why doesn’t the government get in on this? Why do they keep putting it in the closet?

Well, the government is on it but they are afraid of it. For instance, I investigated a contactee in Tennessee about four months ago. The next week I got a call from the Assistant Administrator, Special Projects, NASA. He talked to me for 45 minutes on the phone about this. He’s the man that said no to Carter about NASA getting involved in UFO investigation about a month ago.

The problem is, it is such a soft-data science that the orthodox investigator finds it non-productive. If you have to report to somebody—if you have to say, “This is how I’m spending the money and we’re doing this with it and it’s producing this,” you’re in trouble.

The reason you’re in trouble is that this science is the same as, say, trying to investigate radio waves before the development of the bow and arrow. [Laughs] We need different types of techniques. It’s such a new science that the old techniques don’t work and the orthodox people cannot be productive.

Almost the only techniques that show a sign of working now are the techniques in the so-called new physics where they talk about the observer being part of the phenomenon. This kind of thinking will probably slowly open up new techniques for working with UFO witnesses and for discovering why they’re really here.

One thing I wanted to say in response to the question about “Spectra”—the question really comes down to why they are working with people like Uri Geller, Dr. Puharich, and all the contactees. I think it’s really an important question and it has to do with their basic philosophy which is what the book, Secrets of the UFO, is about. They truly believe in the free will of the people of Earth. They have things they would like to tell us but they do not want to land on the White House lawn, or something, and force us to believe what they know. We would obviously pay a great deal of attention to them if they were to do so because they have a superior technology.

Then there’d be a reaction similar to the Orson Wells radio show.

There might be panic, there might be adoration, neither of which they allegedly want at all—they simply want to get the word out. It would be like if I had a neighbor, I could say pretty much what I wanted to the neighbor, you know, you shouldn’t beat your wife or whatever, because I’m just a neighbor. The neighbor can shut his door on me. But if someone who was a greater being than he came to his door and said “Thou shalt not beat your wife,” then that would press that person to change his behavior and they won’t do it. They simply make available the same kinds of thoughts, the same kinds of ethics, if you will, that the major religions deal with.

So what are they trying to tell us?

I’ll try to condense what has come out of my investigation of contactee information and there’s a lot of it. Let’s say 5% of it is technical, 5% has to do with political and fringe areas, but 90% of it has to do with the evolution of man, the evolution of man’s mind on Earth. It is a very complex catalytic phenomena, you might say, specifically programmed and designed to create the condition on Earth that will allow earthman to progress in a mental evolution.

This is what comes out of the communications. It seems that the basic philosophy is that throughout all space people inhabit numerous planets. The people of any particular planet are at a certain stage in their evolution and thinking. On Earth we’re not at a very accelerated or very elevated state as compared to many other places.

Now, it seems that when a society reaches a stage in their evolution of thought, it then becomes necessary for the society to do certain things that will accelerate the evolution of thought on planets not so far along.

Now, the techniques used are none of the techniques that we’d ever dream of—that’s what comes out of the communications anyway—the techniques used are the techniques that produce what we call the UFO phenomena. And the UFO phenomena has the objective of creating an evolution.

It has the objective of creating an evolution that leads to total unification and total brotherhood and a very highly advanced way of thinking—no wars, no normal problems. Of course everybody says that’s just a utopian fantasy, but these communications come from people all over the world and they come from people who have no possible way of getting information. You go into the most remote areas and you’ll find people who’ve received these communications.

Back to the little lady in Mexico that performed your operation.


Line 3, you’re on “Open Up”.

Yes, I have three questions I’d like to ask. The first one is how many UFO experiences are there in Georgia; the second one is how realistic were UFOs portrayed in “Close Encounters of a third Kind,” I mean the visions, the UFOs attacking the house, and the blackout of the city; and the third question is to Mr. Elkins, and what to him was the most spectacular UFO sighting of this decade?

I don’t know how many there were in Georgia, I’ve no idea—a lot, I can only guess over a thousand. The UFOs in “Close Encounters” were very nicely done. The big one at the end was nothing that I’ve ever seen before. The way they acted, especially the smaller UFOs, was fairly correct.

The communication with the music in “Close Encounters” was nothing I’m familiar with—communications are not normally done by music, there are too many other ways. The primary method I’ve mentioned is telepathic. And what was the third question?

The blackout. The blackout is a quite common UFO phenomena as is the car dying and things moving around in the presence of UFOs.

The third question was the most spectacular sighting.

Well, that’s really difficult to say. The most spectacular sighting? There have been a lot, perhaps the best witnessed was the Travis Walton case two years ago near Heber, Arizona. Travis and six other forestry workers were going home in a truck when they saw a disk-shaped UFO hover—Travis jumped out of the truck and ran under the UFO and the UFO started to wobble. I believe that he possibly got in the field so that he was in danger of being killed if the ship either accelerated away or was forced to land because of his position, and they just shot him with a beam and knocked him unconscious. The other forestry workers panicked and took off like a shot.

The UFO took Travis on board, he was kept for five days. He saw both the four and half foot humanoid but not the earthman type entity and several very earthmen type people—very good looking, seemingly earth people, who communicated a little with him, both male and female, and the other forestry workers were given lie detector tests which they passed and they were investigated by APRO, James Harder who’s a professor of Engineering at Berkeley, by J. Allen Hynek at Northwestern University. APRO has a staff of professors on their board and quite a few of them got into the investigation.

We have to take another break. If you have questions about UFO’s give us a call on “Open Up”.

[Commercial break.]

We’re talking about UFOs with Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert, the authors of The Secrets of the UFO, and if you’d like to get it—it’s an interesting book. It tells of different sightings, the telepathic communications, and also more about Uri Geller. The address for it is LL Research, P. O. Box 629, Croton-on-Hudson, New York 10520. The cost of the book is $12.

Now we’ll go to a caller.

I would like to know, if somebody runs into a UFO how should he act? Should he go to the police? Run?

Okay. That’s a fair enough question. What would you do if you made a sighting?

I would recommend that you do this …

…after you change your underwear …

Don’t touch it if you’re very close because you could get burned. Don’t go inside, don’t go near it unless you’re invited. If you’re invited go ahead—they’re not going to hurt you. They’re very nice people. Report it? Definitely. There are several places to report it. If you report it to your local police they may or may not report it to the Center for UFO Studies. It depends on the type of report. There are several agencies and they’re all listed in our book: Center for UFO Studies at Northwestern University and there’s one in Tucson, Arizona, and now there’s one in Washington. D.C. and one in Quincy, Illinois.

That’s about it. Just call the police, they have a line …

Just call the police. They have a line, they have a phone number for the Center for UFO Studies, but they only report very good cases. Unfortunately, a lot of the cases go unreported just simply because of problems in communication.

Line 2, you’re on the air.

I just wanted to ask a couple of questions. Does the U.S. ever suppress any maybe real heavy information about UFOs? And another question, why do the aliens always seemingly contact the peasants in our societies instead of, say, someone who could maybe help our society like the woman down in Mexico?

Thank you, sir.

Well, there’s a very good reason for contacting the so-called peasants, but that’s explained in our book. To make a long story short, we don’t have anything but peasants in our society. [Laughs] If we landed a 747 in Egypt around, let’s say, the year 1, who would we contact? Would we find anybody but peasants, really, intellectually? There’s a problem in communication there. They’re so far ahead of us that we all appear to be the same intellectually.

There’s another problem too. Allegedly many of the heads of state have been contacted and they have not moved on the information and if you were president and you got this kind of information and you took it to the council and said, “I think we ought to do this,” the council would all say, “No, I don’t think that you should because of …” Then they would give you the reasons: panic, etc., etc., and I imagine that it’s true that many presidents have sat on this information. It is no longer being sat on. There is no more cover up. This is absolutely true. What has happened is they have declassified all the classified stuff and put it in the Library of Congress under document numbers. There are millions of documents and all you have to do is go through them and find the stuff.

President Carter, I think everyone knows, had a sighting a year ago, maybe two years ago?

In about 1973.

What is the story on that?

He just saw a UFO—he didn’t have a close encounter, he saw a UFO at a distance, I don’t know …

I think the whole town saw it. It was seen by many.

Line 3, you’re on “Open Up”.

I have three questions I’d like to ask. I’d like to know about the encounter that Eisenhower had with high government officials out in, I believe it was Edwards AFB with UFOs. I’d also like to know about a bunch of bodies that have been found out in Arizona that were found with a craft that had crashed. And I’d also like to know what you could tell me about George Van Tassel, about his experiences.

I can’t tell you anything about Eisenhower. I’ve heard of that alleged meeting but I can’t tell you anything about it. I was never interested in following up about it.

About the bodies that are supposed to be in Hangar 18 at Edwards AFB, we have no evidence that there is anything to that story. It’s possible, but I have personally spent $500 in long distance phone calls trying to track someone down who could really authenticate that story—I’ve come very close and I have some very hot leads, including an Air Force general, and it just hasn’t materialized yet—I don’t whether the bodies are there or not.

What is the story? That a space ship crashed?

It crashed almost 30 years ago is the story and bodies were recovered and are still at Wright Patterson or Edwards AFB but we can’t prove it.

Now, the third question about George Van Tassel, I know him very well, in fact I saw him in the Atlanta Airport about two years ago. I’ve been out to his place a couple of times. In fact, I spent a week with George getting to know him and to tell the rest of the listening audience who he is. He is one of the early contactees of the 1950s who started a publication about what he learned from the UFO occupants and he also built a machine in the desert that cost about $80,000 to build that he said they told him to build, and to leave it there and when the time was right they would come back and calibrate it for him and turn it on. It was a device to allow travel in time in addition to other things.

There is no way of telling whether this thing is real or not, but I can say that George displayed the seeming telepathic ability that I have witnessed in hundreds of cases and the information that he got in this seeming telepathic manner correlated to a very high percent to general information that is obtained all over the world. Therefore, I do believe that George is acting as a channel for UFO information. I can’t say that the “Integratron” is anything but a large chicken coop because it never has done anything. Maybe someday these troops will land and all they will have to do is listen to this then run …

But it is sitting there?

It is sitting there—you can see it. In fact, you can see if from 31,000 feet as you go into Los Angeles Airport just as you start your descent. If you look down to the right, when you’re on the local lines, you can see the “Integratron” if you know where to look. It’s a big white building and looks like a radar dome.

Line 4, you’re on “Open Up”.

I wanted to ask about the television station being taken over in England, and I wanted to ask Don Elkins if any of that had been explained and I also wanted to ask if they knew about any visual phenomenon around a flight from Georgia about 10 or 12 years ago? I also wanted to ask if they knew anything about Charles Berlitz, who wrote a book about the Bermuda Triangle, being back in the Bermuda Triangle supposedly investigating a pyramid, supposedly, in the Atlantic Ocean? And also I would like to ask them if they are familiar with Patrick Flannigan and if they knew maybe what he was up to now?

I’ll answer the one about the flight from Georgia first, because I don’t know anything about it, and get it out of the way. Pat Flannigan, I don’t know what he’s up to now. I don’t know anything about him—I do know the man and I’ve known about his pyramid investigations, and all I know about Charles Berlitz is that he has been reported to be investigating a pyramid larger than the Pyramid of Giza in the Bermuda Triangle.

The other question having to do with the seeming TV takeover in England. This happened about two months ago. The story is a voice came over the bulk end of the television picture in a 70 miles radius close to London and there was a long message to earthmen.

Now, the message was the standard message. I’ve talked a little bit about this message and it correlated and the message made sense. What we don’t know is whether the message came from a UFO or whether it came from someone on the ground that knew the message and somehow electronically interrupted the television signals.

I called a friend of mine, John Whitmore, in London, just the day after this happened and he said he was investigating and working on it and the last time I talked to him he said he thought it was quite possibly the work of an earth person, not someone who was on board a UFO.

Okay, Line 1, you’re on “Open Up”.

Okay, I’d like to know how the Bigfoot Mystery ties in with UFOs and if there are any other entities around the world and also if there was anyone at Georgia Tech contacted by UFOs?

I haven’t any idea at all about anyone at Georgia Tech. The Bigfoot Mystery is related to the UFO phenomena. It’s one of the fringe areas. There have been a lot of reports of Bigfoot in the vicinity of landed UFOs. Quite a few reports, particularly in Pennsylvania have to do with Bigfoot/UFO relationships. I’ll just give one quick example. And the messages, at least this message that was obtained in a telepathic nature has correlated with the general message.

This was, I believe, August, 1973, in central Pennsylvania. Around 9:00 p.m. a dozen farmers observed a UFO at high altitude, it descended, then it landed in a field. It appeared to be about 100 feet in diameter, white and glowing brightly. A 21-year-old and two 10-year-old boys jumped in a car and went up to investigate. The 21-year-old had a .30 automatic six rifle. When they got within 175 yards of the UFO the engine died, the lights went off, and the car wouldn’t run.

They got out and proceeded on foot. Shortly after they got out of the car, they saw two large man-like creatures come from behind the UFO and walk beside a 6 foot high fence. From this they were able to tell that the creatures were approximately 7 and 8 feet tall. The creatures came towards them and when they got within about 100 feet they could easily tell that they were Bigfoot types, they were able to describe them carefully and they were able to make drawings. It was a class of Bigfoot.

The 21-year-old fired a warning shot over their heads but they didn’t stop. He then panicked and fired a .30 automatic six round directly into the 8 foot one, dead center, and it had no effect on him at all, but the UFO vanished instantly, leaving a glowing ring of light on the ground. He then fired two more shots directly into the big one. After the third shot, the big one tapped the little one on the shoulder, and they turned around and walked back into the woods.

The Highway Patrol showed up and the Highway Patrolman could still read a newspaper by the glowing ring of light on the ground. He went up to the woods to investigate and heard some crashing noises and got a little panicky and jumped into his car and drove off.

A MUFON investigating team with Stan Gordon showed up and questioned all of the witnesses. At this point, the 21-year-old who had fired all the shots sort of went out of his mind. He started attacking the people around him, he was attacked by his dog, he knocked three of the farmers to the ground, and sent the dog howling off into the bushes and when they finally got him down and got him calm, he said, “Don’t you see him, he’s over in the corner.” They didn’t see anybody and he said, “A man in a black cape over in the corner.”

They still didn’t see anyone and he said. “He’s telling me something—he’s telling me that if man does not straighten up the end is near.”

Well, this is one of the more drastic UFO communications. It does fit in—it is a puzzle piece that fits in, but there’s a lot more that goes into this story, but I can’t go into it because it will take more time than we have available.

In several of these programs [sightings] a follow-up study was done by an imminent psychiatrist, Berthold Schwartz, who is a UFO investigator for Flying Saucer Review, the most prestigious London-based investigating outfit. It’s a very carefully analyzed thing and the puzzle pieces do fit—there have been several other cases of Bigfoot being shot and in a couple of the cases he vanished just as a flashbulb went off—just like a flash of light when he was shot.

When you said this spacecraft vanished from Pennsylvania, how did it vanish?

Just vanished, just like that. Just like you turned the television set off—it was gone.

Okay, more on UFOs after these words.

[Commercial break.]

Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert are with us and together they’ve written this book, The Secrets of the UFO and while we were on the break Carla mentioned to me that if you have made a sighting, there’s an address you can write to, so if you want to get a pencil we’ll give you a couple of minutes here to get a pencil so you can write this address down. But also, call the police, if that should happen, because if it’s valid enough hopefully they will get to the right people and maybe Don and Carla can come by and investigate you.

Big question we’ve been having: how does all this fit in with God, the Bible, the whole routine there?

It’s a very important question and I’m speaking not as a scientist because I was trained as a writer and a librarian, but as a practicing Christian. I firmly feel that the UFO message has a good deal to offer to anyone who is either a Christian or not. The spiritual has often disturbed those who attempt to go to church and don’t find everything they want there. There are different paths for different people and what the UFO message has as its very unique gift is an ability to cut through the theology of various religions and deal with the heart of truth, whatever that may be, on a very personal basis so that you can work yourself on your own path, whether it is Christianity or whatever it is that you really need for your own spiritual evolution.

Ron Kirk, our floor man that I mentioned while we were on the break, asked if there is any chance the UFOs are looking for one particular person? Or a person that would fit into what they would want to say and tell the world, “Hey, here’s the message.”

Well there are different types of UFO contacts because there are so many types of UFOs it seems from so many places. There seems to be just precisely the type that you’re talking about. In the case of Charlie Hicks in Pascagoula in 1973, he was taken on board the ship we believe because he was selected. There was a definite reason. There is a long story about why that happened but he is one of these people.

Now, in other cases they’re not looking for anybody. They just happen to land and they come in contact with somebody. That’s because in one case we have a special mission UFO who’s coming here for a specific thing like Charlie Hicks and in another case we’ve just got a random contact.

I hope you have your pencils ready because here’s the address: Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, or APRO, 3910 East Kleindale Road, Tucson, Arizona, 85712. Now. they will also supply people with information if people want to just write and ask a question?

Certainly. Membership subscriptions are about $10 per year and they can give you that information. They have a regular newsletter.

Line 2, you’re on “Open Up”.

I’d like to know what you think about the theory that aliens live in the Earth’s core and that there are openings at the North and South poles, and the coincidence that Betty and Barney Hill had when they described the part of the universe where the aliens came from in the computer that mapped locations in space—it was a thing she described …

Okay, who wants to answer that?

I’m not going to comment on the Hollow Earth Theory because I have no data on it all. I know of it—I’ve read the books, but I haven’t any opinion at all.

About the Betty and Barney Hill thing, they were taken on board a UFO in 1961 and they started the chain of physical examination type experiences on board UFOs. There have been lots and lots of them since then. Betty Hill was able to remember under hypnosis a star map that she saw while on the UFO and Mrs. Fish, just about two to three years ago, was able, after making hundreds of models, able to develop a computerized model of this star map and found that it actually represented a system of stars very, very close to the horizon when viewed from this hemisphere.

However, the direction of view was not from the Earth out, but from beyond the stars towards the Earth and it fit perfectly. So this is one of the strange coincidences that make you stop and think possibly the hard data on UFOs is a valuable thing.

Sadly enough, Zeta Reticuli is not visible from the observatories in North America and we don’t have observatories in South America that can keep watch for radio signals from Zeta Reticuli.

Line 3, you’re on “Open Up”.

I would like to ask Mr. Elkins about the power plant that he referenced earlier in a ship and I would like to know what he can tell us about the power plants, the way the ships are powered?

If I knew how they were powered, I would build one. All I can tell you is—geometry. The geometry is what is called the classical Venusian bell craft. There are three spheres on the bottom of the ship—you only see a hemisphere from the outside or the inside. The Sergeant saw the hemisphere from the inside—they’re at 120 degree intervals and then they have rods running from the spheres to a central control box in the center of the ship. This, Sgt. Moody’s observation, was the inside observation one would expect from the outside geometry of the classical bell craft.

Okay, Line 4, you’re on “Open Up”.

Yes, we’re from Pocatello, Idaho and live here, and one question we wanted to ask was about all the controversy here about cattle mutilation. There was never any evidence of malpractice or anything and the sexual organs of the animals had been taken out and no blood was found around the animals and they have no explanation for it and I was wondering if you could give us some kind of explanation or if you knew anything about it that you could tell us what the answer was?

That’s one of the things that we’re working on very actively. There are thousands of these mutilations all over the place. I talked with a Deputy Sheriff in Montana who had investigated several dozen of the mutilations. In many cases the cattle have been found in fresh snow, no tracks leading to the cow or away from it, just a melted area of snow about six feet in diameter around the cow. Mutilation seems to be standard—that is, certain parts are removed, the same parts are removed each time. There have been numerous unidentified objects sighted in the area close to the mutilation area.

Now, this type of phenomena is not related to—and we’re pretty certain of this—is not related to the other type of UFO contact. It is a separate phenomena but it is a paranormal phenomena, that is, it’s the type of phenomena we’re talking about—the materialization type of phenomena. There is a watery theory available but it’s cumbersome, long, and I really can’t get into it now, and can’t really say too much more about this at this time because the data isn’t good enough.

There’s a story that’s been in the paper, it was in January and then again this week, from Port Lavaca, Texas. They’ve had some strange unidentified noises out there like a sonic boom. Are you familiar with that? Nobody can explain it. The story said smoke detectors in homes were activated right before the noises …

This is … I was personally involved with [this] just about a month and half ago. The sonic booms started on the East Coast about two months ago in New Jersey. Just before they started I happened to be sitting across the breakfast table from Andrea Puharich when he started getting communication on his wrist watch.

If you’ve read the book you know about his watch communications. He has a double watch and he gets these codes. He has a book coming out this summer that tells all about the watch communications, it’s called “Time No Longer.”

He started getting communications and he said “Hey, I’m getting one,” and I went over to look and sure enough it had stopped on the nine and everything was going along nicely. Well, the message was very short. It said “The Decree of the Nine—explosions boiling.” We didn’t know what it meant but several days later the explosions started going off. So we’re still working on it, we haven’t any idea what the message means or what the explosions mean but possibly we’ll get another communication and find out.

We’re just about out of time. Once again, the book is Secrets of the UFO, and is co-authored by Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert who were kind enough to stay up until this early hour and answer all the nice calls we had and talk to us a little bit about UFOs.

Once again, if we make a sighting or make contact with one, be nice to them, okay? And we gave the address several times on the air. And for people that want to pick up your book it tells us all about the UFOs, it goes from different stories of sightings to the telepathic communications. Interesting book. Thank you again for being with us.

  1. Don Elkins with Carla L. Rueckert, Secrets of the UFO: Louisville, KY, L/L Research, ©1976. This book is still available from L/L Research. 

  2. The doctor’s name was Kit Pedlar. He never let us know what his findings, if any, were. We lost touch with him directly after he left Mexico. 

  3. Don’s operation, to relieve hemorrhoids, proved to be unsuccessful. Carla’s operation was completely successful. 

  4. This computer database is called “UFOCAT.” As of 2005, the database held details of over 170,000 cases. Begun in 1967 by David Saunders, it was revived by Donald Johnson of CUFOS after computer technology had advanced to the point where it was possible in terms of cost to keep such a large body of data on hand. 

  5. John M. Taylor, Superminds: A Scientist Looks at the Paranormal: New York, Viking Press, 1975. has used copies for sale but the book is now out of print. 

  6. Some of the many communications received by Puharich while he was working with Geller are included as an appendix in Andrija Puharich’s book, Uri; A Journal of the Mystery of Uri Geller: New York, Anchor Press, 1974.