Guys, Roland, here. Today, we will be talking with an amazing fellow whose work has really transformed the lives of very, very many people. Talking about one of the authors of the Law-of-One material. And we will go kind of behind the scenes to get to know him even more. And then also what the process was like in recording this material right after this.

Welcome to Conversations with Roland, where the goal of the show is to learn life’s secrets through diverse experiences. I am your host, Roland Achenjang.

Guys, welcome to another episode of Conversations with Roland. As always, I am super excited to record these conversations and today is no different. Today, my guest is widely known as one of the authors of the Law-of-One. A series of books detailing sensational philosophical, spiritual, historical, life-transforming material and information about life on this planet, on other planets, and throughout the cosmos, which they became aware of after communicating with the sixth density conscious awareness or beings or social memory complex known as Ra (R-A). Fascinating stuff. This work was done in the early 80s, but its still stands the test of time. I stumbled into this work about two weeks ago and I was super, super fascinated by it. I connected with one of the authors, who is my guest today. And just wanted to go behind the scenes of how they got this work out, what they did to record, and who Jim is. And by saying, Jim, you know exactly who my guest is, it’s my very good friend, Jim McCarty. So, Jim, welcome to your first episode of Conversations with Roland. How are you, my friend? How are you?

I’m doing well, Roland, and I really appreciate being on your podcast. So I’ll be glad to do whatever I can to help people understand more about the Law-of-One and how it all came about. It was an epic time for us, certainly.

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, the work you guys did is fascinating. And I, I may not even be fully aware of just how amazing of a moment this is, just because of how young and I should say, you know, naive in a way, of the extent to which this information has helped people. I mean, you worked on this way before I was born. This was like eighty-one to eighty-four, I believe. And you’ve had this information out in multiple formats ever since. And I just stumbled on it literally two to three weeks ago and I found it very, very fascinating. So, yeah, I’m glad you’re here.

I’m glad to be here.

Awesome. I’m hoping to kind of get to know you a little bit better. I think that the work in and of itself is something that anybody reading on a spiritual path will find fascinating. But going behind the scenes to see who are the individuals who put this work out? How did you get together? Why did you do this? And I kind of wanted to start by just asking, you know, where you were born when you were born. Let’s start from the beginning.

Well, I was born in the middle of this country in Nebraska. In Kearney, Nebraska, on May 10th, 1947 at two oh six in the morning.

Oh, that’s interesting. You remember you were able to find or you remember that information about the time you were born.

It was on my birth certificate.

Yeah. Indeed. So I say that because I’ve been trying to find out my time of birth from my mom and she doesn’t remember. And I’ve used that to, you know, kind of work with, like astrological charts to make sense of who I am as a person. So fascinating. All right. So you’re born in Nebraska. 2:06 you decide to show up on the planet. What was life like for you growing up?

Life was fun. My mom and dad were very supportive and they had both been kids during the time of the Great Depression in the United States in the 30s. And they were very poor. And so they decided they wanted to have one child, a son. It didn’t matter that it was a son, but it turned out to be a son, and give their son everything they didn’t have. So they were very supportive of everything I did. I enjoyed school. I did well in school. I enjoyed athletics, went out for whatever sport was in season. And I had a couple of really good friends. And that was that way all the way through college.

Neat. So it sounds like you are an only child then?


And this was a conscious decision by your parents to just have one?

It was. They felt that they didn’t really know how well they would do financially in this world because they had to work very hard growing up. And neither one was able to graduate high school. They had to quit school to get jobs to help support the families. And so I think they were, you know, thinking, well, let’s just have one child so we can give him the things we didn’t have.

Oh. That’s really, if I would use words that you are very much familiar with, kind of service to others thought mentality.

They were very good people, very hard-working people. My dad managed a little grocery store in the town I was raised in, called Lexington. They were only five thousand people in it. And my mom worked with my dad. She kept the books, stocked shelves, did check out at the checkout counter. And so they did everything together. They cleaned the house together, they cooked together, they garden together. So when women’s liberation came around later on in the 60s, I thought, well, my mom’s already liberated, my dad’s liberated. They worked together all the time, you know?

Like, yeah, we’re ahead of the game here, in a sense.

Yeah, they’re good people.

And that’s great. Now, did uncles, aunts on either side of the family?

Plenty of those on both sides of the family. They came from pretty sizable families. My dad had, I think there were six kids in his family. And my mom, they were just three in her family. She was raised in western Nebraska. They didn’t have any automobiles at that time. They had a horse-drawn wagon. They went to town in. They made their money by milking 27 milk cows twice a day and sold the milk. My dad was raised in rural Alabama. He had quit school, too, and he went into the grocery business early. So he was in the grocery business all his life. So, yeah, that was the way it was for them. And I didn’t really get to know too many of my relatives in Alabama because it was so far away. We went down there every few years, but it got to know the one’s in western Nebraska pretty well. And I still have an aunt that is alive and she’s in her 90s, my mom’s sister. So yeah, I know a couple of cousins in western Nebraska, too. Other than that, I really wouldn’t recognize any of my relatives from Alabama, you know, so I don’t really have much family left.

OK, but that’s an interesting story, especially the fact that they milk cows for funds. Is this something that they taught you how to do?

No. When I was in grade school, I would go out to western Nebraska and stay with my aunts and uncles in the summertime when we were in school here and see them milking cows and see them riding horses and so forth. My uncle was in rodeos. He did calf roping and my aunt kept records and so forth. So they did interesting things. My other aunt and uncle, they were farmers. And so I go out and just see what it’s like to go farming and go fishing. They have places to go fishing out there. I always like to go fishing. And it was an interesting place to be. I mean, there were no trees. Nebraska’s very flat. And so it’s the big sky country. You can see from horizon to horizon and you can see forever. Yeah. And in the sandhills of Nebraska, they’re just rolling hills so that there’s not a lot of vegetation there. There probably is by now, but when I was a kid, there wasn’t.

OK, pretty neat. Now my experience with Rodeo firsthand was in Sidney, Montana. I lived in Sidney, Montana for four years and I went to one rodeo there. And I got to experience, you know, a lot of the sporting events. But I’ll be honest, it was new to me. It was very new to me at the time. It still is. And I just appreciated how much thought went into it. The Cowboys, especially the calf roping that you mentioned that your uncle did. And then in my naive self, I actually felt bad for the animals. You guys just release them to run, catch and tie them up in the seconds?

I think today the feeling is not so much that that’s fun for the animals. It’s like in horse racing, it’s not a good thing for the animals that are partaking because they would rather be out in the, you know, the free-range and feeding there. But, you know, people make a living one way and another, and eventually, they end up on people’s tables. The stakes and so forth. I know there are more vegetarians, more of us vegetarians, but there’s still a lot of people who enjoy the meat. Yeah. So, you know, that’s where it is in this world.

Yeah, it is. Which is fascinating, and with a spiritual awakening, you think, OK, that’s literally one way to experience Consciousness, right? Is through this avenue and this outlet. But you also mentioned fishing. You’re like fishing?

Yeah. That was back in the days when I was in grade school. And I would frequently go out to the Platte River. It was about three miles from my hometown, Lexington. And I’d ride my bicycle out there and go fishing. But I would usually release the fish that I caught. We didn’t eat the fish usually, so I was a little more conscious then. But it was also a good area for me to hunt for fossils because there was a sand and gravel company that pumped out some of the river there to get the sand, to make roads, and to sell it for people who needed sand, for cement and so forth. And they would pump out fossils occasionally, you know, old things from millions of years ago. So I liked that even more than fishing. So I’d hunt around there. And I still have some of the fossils that I found out there in those early days, 16 or so years ago.

No kidding. What did you find fossils of?

Well, I have… It looks like a saber tooth tiger tooth. It’s about four inches long and it’s broken off at the bottom. And that’s what people say that look at it that I showed it to over the years. So saber tooth tigers were, you know, thousands of years ago and they apparently roamed that area when it was uninhabited by anybody besides, you know, other animals. And I would occasionally find arrowheads from Native Americans. Those are all over Nebraska, the various tribes that Oglala Sioux especially lived in Nebraska. And it’s always fun to find arrowheads. I still have a lot of those. And different types of stone, agate and granite and so forth. I had a stone collection.I’d bring stones at home and I had a chest of drawers that had four drawers, one on the bottom I put my stones eventually got so heavy I could hardly pull it out. But yeah. And to this day, if you remember when you visited here, I had stonework all over the yard. And so I brought those stones here. Did the stone work. So I like stones. I like to work with stones.

Yeah. That’s actually sort of preempting my next question. In visiting with you, seeing all the stone work you’ve done, I wonder if this is where that inspiration or the love for doing stone work came?

I think it began back when I was a little kid and just saw all those stones out there, pretty stones. I didn’t know what they were then. They were pretty. That was all it was necessary for me to bring them home. And as I got older, you know, eventually when I was in my mid-twenties, I moved to the woods of central Kentucky and I discovered a lot of stones there. You know, the creeks here in Kentucky are full of stones, usually limestone. And so I learned how to make a retaining wall behind my cabin to keep the dirt. You know, I dug down in the ground to make my cabin and I taught myself basically how to work with the stones so they would keep the dirt from falling into the area where my cabin was. And I built an outside firepit where I could cook my food. And so I just got into it there and then I kept doing it when I got here. We used to have some land in northern Kentucky that Carla and I would go to for a little retreat. And we thought at one point we’d live there, but we did bring back a lot of the stones from the creek there. I figured I brought back about seventy-five tons over 25 years, and you probably saw some of that in the yard. It’s all over the place.

Yeah. So, yes, you actually did just mention your move to Kentucky and building, you know, kind of like a stone wall behind your house. And I actually find this fascinating in preparing for this conversation was your decision to move and build your own cabin sort of in a very isolated area in Kentucky. It sounded like this was after college.


Yeah. And so I was wondering, well, what was your thought process into making this decision to sort of go off the grid, if you don’t mind me using those words?

Well, there’s a little background information I have to give you first. This was after my final college experience. I was in Florida and I’d been in a program called Teacher Corps, which was working with inner-city kids. It was actually a master’s degree program, so we got training in how to be teachers. We got an education that ended up in a master’s degree. We also got paid and then we got the experience of working with these kids. And after I finished that, I decided that I just didn’t have the energy to keep up with kids. They had too much energy for me. And so I wanted to do something else. And I looked in the back of this book, it was called Rasberry Exercises: How to Start Your Own School and Write a Book. And in the back of it, in the bibliography, I just happened to come across this notation about the Adventure Trail Survival School in Blackhawk, Colorado. And it was a program of brain self-control in nature, a self-therapy program. And it sounded very interesting. So I wrote to the fellow T.D. Lingo and we communicated and I signed up for his course: brain and Nature Course for 1972. The whole idea of the course was if you can discover the handful of blockages in your brain that keep the energy from flowing from the old roots stem into the frontal lobes, then nature will naturally circulate the energy forward and awaken your frontal lobes, the third eye, the indigo-ray energy center. And the way that was done was through dream analysis, through essaying. When you got some dreams that were valuable to you and they gave you some idea about any blockage you might have, and you would write about it. And then when you got an understanding of what the blockage was, there’s usually no more than three or four, then you did something that he called a neuro drama. You reenacted the time that you either remembered or dreamed about where you were blocked. Usually before the age of seven. And it’s usually parents or teachers or friends that give you some sort of anti-life blockage, usually concerning sexuality or your ability to be independent so that when you’re a young kid, you don’t know that you have the right to stand up for yourself. So the whole idea of the neuro drama is to take this dream information that tells you what the blockage was and then to reenact it. And you get people to help you. They play the other roles of whoever it was that helped to block you. And you do whatever necessary. This time being an adult, you know you have rights. You scream, you shout, you cry, you do whatever necessary to express yourself, as you would have then if you had known that you had the right to do that. So eventually I worked those through so that on one morning on July 12th, 1971, I was in my lean-to (we all had lean-tos hundreds of yards away from the camp out of sight of anybody else). He was in the Rocky Mountains, 10,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains outside of Blackhawk, Colorado, which is about 40 miles west of Denver.

So I was in my lean-to that I’d built myself and it was in a pre-conscious state. The sun was not up yet. It’s that pre-conscious state, the alpha state that meditators work for. And I felt a click right here in my frontal lobes. And then I felt my brain circulating. It felt like my brain itself was circulating like a cyclotron. And it was a combination of pressure and pleasure. And that was the first of what turned out to be a number of such experiences. It was like having an orgasm in your brain. And I came back for the second year to teach at that school. The courses were a month-long, and I came back to be a teacher. And then his dictum, you might say to students that had success at doing this is each one, teach one, go start your own school. Find someplace in the woods. Because he felt the only in primal nature could you have this ability to work with the brain in that way? Because in the city environment, there’s too much input, too much static, and it interferes with this type of a program of the self-therapy. So I moved to Kentucky with the idea of starting my own school and that’s what I did. I moved there in 1974 and I was there for six and a half years off the grid.

I built the log cabin that I lived in. I built three other cabins and I had two classes that came through. And we used those same techniques. I didn’t have anybody have that same type of experience that I had. And I think that was because I had another thing to do besides that type of work, and that was to join Don and Carla. And since I didn’t have a radio or electricity or anything like that, I had a battery-powered radio that allowed me to hear, coincidentally, Don and Carla being interviewed on a station in Lexington, Kentucky. And they were talking about UFOs. They were talking about the message that the UFO occupants had, that we were all part of the one infinite creator. We were all here to learn how to become a conscious part of the creator, how to learn and grow. And I was really interested. So that’s how I first heard about Don and Carla, and it took me about six months to finally meet them.

OK, all right. I love this. You’ve kind of gone ahead and answered some questions which we’ll get into, and, you know, you mentioned Don and Carla. Anyone who is listening to this conversation, if you’re not familiar, Don and Carla, are Jim’s other colleagues who were a big part of the bringing in of this information from Ra into our current physical experience here on planet Earth. But we’ll get to that, Jim. So this is why I love this. In researching, I saw that you decide to go off the grid. And I thought that that was odd. And I don’t know if you’ve ever shared this with people in such a forum, but this is new to me and it’s fascinating. You’re kidding me, right? So I was trying to take notes. So we’re going to go back and I apologize if I mess this up. But it all started like sometime in 1971 when you came across the Rasberry Exercises… Is what you call it. Rasberry exercise?

It was a book.

Yeah, OK. And then in the back of the book, they talk about this adventure trail, survival school. And who was the author of this book and the school? I forget his name.

T.D. Lingo.

T.D. L-I-N-G-O?

Right. It was a chosen name. He was actually a Russian kid from Chicago that was in World War Two. And in that experience, he was with General Patton at the end of the war when they were invading Italy and moving up to Germany. And when they got to Germany, by that time, the war was almost over and Hitler had called up the old men and the young boys to try to bolster the German army. So one day, Lingo was coming around this cabin in the woods and he saw this old German soldier and he bayoneted him in the stomach. And they were the only ones around. So before he died, the soldier and Lingo sat on the porch together, and the soldier showed him pictures of his family. And so at the end of the war, Lingo had the question, “why did I have to kill my brother?” And that sent him to the University of Chicago during the golden era when Mortimer Adler was there in psychology and Enrico Fermi had just split the atom underneath the football stands. And one day out in the hall, Enrico Fermi was having an informal conversation with a number of people, students, and Lingo was there. He said, “We have just split the atom and released the power of the atom.” “And one day one of you,” and he pointed his finger. “will split the brain atom and even more energy will come from that.” And so Lingo started thinking, well, I’m going to investigate that.

So he did all the investigation he could. He eventually got on television on this show where you could (it was a kind of a game show). And he earned a bunch of money on that show. And somebody discovered him. He played his guitar there and somebody discovered him and had to go on a tour. So he, got back in those days, thirty-two thousand dollars was a lot of money. So he gave half of it to the IRS, took the other half, went to the Colorado and bough his mountain and started a school. And he had his own brain self-control explosion. His own brain orgasm basically. It lasted for about three days. And after that he discovered a path to help other people do the same thing. And that was the adventure trail survival school, the brain and nature course, the self therapy. And so that’s how that all came about. And that’s just part of the story he had to tell. But that was his story, basically.

And this was all self-taught in a sense. He didn’t have a teacher or guru.

He discovered it himself.

Yeah. So that’s fascinating because the other thing you talk about is his big philosophy of reducing external stimuli or what I would call distractions in a sense, and, you know, encouraging students on this path to go into nature where sort of this external stimuli are reduced.


I find that very legitimate, and I’m getting ahead of myself here in a future conversation where we’re going to talk about the pyramids of Giza. In kind of listening to what, you know, Ra had to say about this, It’s kind of the same idea. It was built as a place to isolate yourself from external stimuli, so that you could eventually reconnect with the sort of intelligent infinity and recognize it as yourself. So hint for anybody who’s wondering what the pyramids were built for, you know, that’s according to Ra what it was. Awesome stuff. But then the cool thing to hear is, you actually, in practicing this… And a lot of these ideas are still out today for anyone on the spiritual path: dream analysis, right? That’s huge. I mean, do you mind commenting on that?

Well, yeah. The whole thing was he said, “If you can convince your subconscious that you’re serious about growing spiritually, it will give you information that will help you to do so.” “And each person,” he said, “would have his or her own language of the subconscious. And once you were able to start getting these messages, they would continue to give you this information that could help you and your spiritual growth.” And so for, I guess, the next eight or nine years, I used dream analysis and still used it when I joined Don and Carla. And Carl and I would do this in the mornings as well. And interestingly enough, she could remember so much about her dream, it took an hour for her to tell her dream. So it didn’t really work that well for her. And we kind of gave it up for a while. But then interestingly enough, when she passed away five and a half years ago, it came back to me in a big way, and I discovered there was still a good deal of work to do. And so I went back into the dream analysis and I found out so many things that were so important to me, you know, unique to me that helped me in my spiritual growth. And after she was gone, I was also able, in dreams to communicate with her. And she gave me information that was pivotal in my life experience.

We are getting ahead of ourselves here? So, you know, I did want to ask, for anyone who is listening, but we’ll get to it. I just do not want to jump too much here. So dream analysis is important. What do you say to folks who wake up, who have to get up in the evening at night to go and use the restroom, and then their dreams are interrupted? You think that even in the short dreams that they do remember that these messages are still able to be shared?

Oh, yeah, I discovered that the dreams that are most easy for me to remember were usually ones that happened right before I was going to wake up.


However, I was able to get other dreams and record those. I kept a little flashlight next to my bed with a sock over it so it wasn’t too bright to wake me up. And then when I got a dream, I would try to wake myself up and write it down, because as soon as you can write it down, you get more details. The longer you wait to write it down, the fewer details you get from it. So you can program yourself, you know, to wake up. And so really, that was the time when I got the best types of dreams was just before I woke up.

Yeah. And so the other thing you mentioned is that these dreams are going to be unique to you as an individual as far as the messages that you get.

Right. As Ra said, there are general concepts we can all use together in dreams. And the more you do the dream work, the more the language is peculiar or particular to you. So you develop your own language of the dreams. For me, if I was ever in a car in a dream that signified my life and the direction it was going in. If I was in a house that signified by my mind or my brain and the various portions of my brain. If I was with a female of any type that that represented my subconscious, the in the archetypical mind, the high priestess. So those were the basics of my dream analysis.

I love it. This gives me an idea for another conversation called Dream Analysis with Jim McCarty - future conversation. And this part I find fascinating where you talk about doing a neuro drama. And my understanding is after you have a dream, you record it, you read through the dream. And you know, at this point you’re able to discern the message or the area of blockage that you need to sort of unblock, or heal, or love is, then you have to go into your life and find out the source of where you first experienced this blockage. And then sort of bring friends to reenact it for you. And then at that point, now, as an adult with an expanded level of consciousness, understanding unconditional love and free-will and also the desire to express yourself fully, then you’re able to sort of heal, in a sense, by then expressing yourself how you really would today as an adult in that circumstance?

Right, right. The big part of that before you had the neuro drama was to start writing about it. Some people call it automatic writing. But if you just think about what you did, what you saw in the dream, what it meant, write more about it. Get all the understanding you can in your mind, intellectual understanding first, and then you have the neuro drama to complete the emotional part of the understanding. Lingo’s idea was that in the brain there were neurons that had a blockage. They were open, and it was stopping the energy from flowing forward naturally into the frontal lobes. And this open neuron could be closed so it could transmit energy. If you went through the neuro drama and got the emotional understanding, that was the equivalent of closing that circuit so it can now function. It could let the energy come from your old roots stem and through the cortex, into the frontal lobes, and not be blocked by that open neuron that represented the blockage that someone gave you as a child.

Now, I think it’s no accident you have those blockages because we all programmed reincarnating choices that are distortions, Ra said. And this is something that would be programmed that you would discover hopefully one way or another. I happen to discover mine through dream analysis and the using of the essaying and the neurotrauma.

Yeah. And that actually raises up another good point. If these were pre-programmed for this current incarnation, like, we’re getting into a totally different line of questioning here. But then can you now unprogram it by essentially closing that that neural link?

Right. Carla suggested when she wrote the book, Living the Love-Of-One: The choice that you can heal yourself in that way or other ways. But you need to constantly be aware that the world around you will continue to bring you that lesson again and again at a different level, a kind of a spiraling upwards so that you get refinements of those lessons. They’re not gone for good. You need to keep track of that type of experience to recognize it again when it comes around so that you can continue to grow. You can continue to expand your consciousness and use that reincarnating program to do so.

Indeed. That resonates with me. It makes a lot of sense. It’s akin to meditating. Somebody hearing this will say, man, that seems like a lot of time to sit and analyze my dream. And, you know, you kind of mentioned Carla takes an hour to tell a dream. So I thought, OK, this doesn’t work, right? When you were doing this, you weren’t teaching anymore. These Kids had worn you out. Like, no, I’m not teaching.

They had too much energy for me. Yeah, but there were a number of paths I could have taken in my life that I didn’t take because it didn’t quite feel right. And that was one. And that was just something that I felt, you know, that wasn’t meant for me to work with kids. And so I felt worn out. And it wasn’t the kids’ fault. It wasn’t my fault. It was just to get me on my path so that I could get where I needed to go.

You know, at twenty-seven years old, I would say with all my heart is that, that’s a huge realization. Many people don’t get that at twenty-seven. Mine hit me a twenty-eight when I actually picked up the practice of meditating, and I didn’t even know I was meditating. This was just out of frustration, of not understanding why life wasn’t reconciling itself within my being based on what I’ve learned in school, religious teachings, and then what I’m actually experiencing in the real world. It didn’t reconcile. And that frustration is what pushed me to say, OK, let me meditate. And that was right at twenty-eight for me and you know, at twenty-seven based on my calculation was in 1974 when you decided to go build your own cabin right in the woods in Kentucky. When you finally had this sort of brain orgasm, which I like that word, and I’m going to just steal this moment to say I’ve had many experiences like this during meditating practices where I would tap into a piece of conscious awareness and I would literally move my hand, and it feels like a full-body orgasm. I mean, I would stretch my hand or my legs or just my head, and I would be screaming, literally like, why does moving my hand feels so good? Up to today, I can’t explain it except to say maybe I was, you know, reconnecting or releasing some blockages of some sort.

Very likely. I mean, each person has his or her own way of doing this. That’s one thing that I really have appreciated from the Ra contact, is we all experience this type of growth and spiritual progression in a unique way. Some of the ways are similar to each other and there are general qualities that can be taught. But still, the way it manifests in each person is different. And we all are different. Although we all are also alike in some ways.

Yeah, we are. But yeah, these orgasms and they’re so great. And I would encourage anybody to get to know themselves to a point where they can have these like non-sexual orgasms honestly. So this Rock Creek Foundation was this your going out to essentially teach the information you learned through the Brain and Nature course?

When Lingo advised his students to go and buy a piece of land to do the same thing, set up a school, he gave us the basic outline of his 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, we could fill it in so that we could also have the same type of organization and be able to do this kind of work. So it was handy that I had this. So when I joined Don and Carla that could be the umbrella organization and we were still known as L/L research because they’d already done a lot of work, 12 years of work before I met them as L/L research. So we were the Rock Creek Research and Development Laboratories Incorporated 501(c)(3) doing business as L/L Research. It all blended, you know. And I’m sure that was not an accident. You know, we we blended our energies in lots of ways. And that was one, you know, in the business world, too.

Yeah, no, that’s neat. Your parents, it sounds like they were very supportive of everything you did. So in communicating to them, like, hey, I can’t teach kids anymore. I’m going to go live in the woods and, you know, start my own foundation. What was their reaction in a sense?

What was their reaction? Well, they were a little puzzled because they grew up off the grid. They didn’t have electricity, they didn’t have running water, they had outhouses. And they thought maybe I wouldn’t want to have those things, you know? Yeah, but they were totally supportive. They said, well, whatever makes you happy is what we want you to do. And so they would come to visit me there in the woods. And were familiar with using an outhouse, which is what I had for them, and not having any running water or electricity. And we go to town together, do things together that were more comfortable than just sitting in the woods. But they came to visit me every year. And then when I joined Don and Carla, they couldn’t quite figure out what that was all about. So when somebody would ask my mom what I was doing, what’s your son doing these days? “Well, he’s a typist for an airline pilot.” You know, I was a transcriber for the Ra contact. The way she put that for them was I was a typist for the airline pilot. As if everybody knows airline pilots have to have a typist.

They’re like medical doctors?.

Yeah. So totally supportive. Totally supportive. They did not understand what I was doing or why, but it made me happy. That’s what they wanted.

Oh, that’s nice. That’s neat. And it is true. There’s a certain sense of bravery that can almost be argued as stupidity when people are following their passion. Right? That’s so stupid. Why would you do that? But it feels right. And I like those words. It does feel right. It’s the same for me today. You know, I quit my job as a pharmacist and this feels right. I like talking to folks about spiritually expansive information and sharing it. I like doing Energy Healing work. I like meditating, and so it’s either very brave or very stupid, this decision I have made. But we’ll see what unfolds. I mean, one of the unfolding is literally how we met, which that’s a fascinating story on its own. But I’m curious now, you mentioned you got your radio and your battery. You’re listening to the radio station, and then you hear of Don and Carla and the work they’re doing. And at this time, it really was geared towards the phenomenon of unidentified flying objects or UFOs. And then six months after that, you connect with them. Which in looking at how time is moving. my own subjective correlation is, you know, literally three days after I find out about the Law-of-One or four days, I connected with you. Time has changed. It doesn’t have to take six months anymore. And it also helps that we actually are in kind of the same area of the United States.

But this group you, Don, Carla - very fascinating. I mean, you detail a lot of your personal experiences in the Law-ofOne material. You’re able to ask, you know, a lot of very personal questions about things that are going on in your life. And you share that with all of us. I’m actually very curious about Don. He’s no longer here with us on this planet, but in reading just a little bit about this, this fellow, this man, this genius, in a sense, he seems like a modern day St. Germain. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with St. Germain at all, but St. Germain in the past has been everything. Some people say he was actually Jesus’ father, Joseph. Some people have said that he was the count of Dracula back in Europe, way back when. And they said he was very involved with a lot of the European revolution, and the move of, you know, Europeans to the United States. He was really involved with the high society, in Europe, and they said he’s been incarnating on this planet many, many times. And then most recently, he was the author, the being that was transcribed into the I AM Discourses. And for anybody who’s interested, you can check out that book and read it as well. But Don seemed like that, right? He was an engineer. He worked simultaneously at the University of Louisville and Alaska, if I’m looking at the dates, and this was, you know, all by the age of 35. He was tenured at the University of Louisville. Then he goes on to be a commercial pilot. Like he hasn’t done enough? He flies until he’s 54. He’s doing UFO research at the same time. And then he’s also working on the Law-Of-One material with Ra, and you, and Carla. And then by the time he’s 25, he’s doing past life regression analysis on people. What didn’t this man do? And so I was just curious what it was like being around someone like Don Elkin’s?

Well, it was a joy and a pleasure. The three of us had this harmony between the three of us that was just indescribable. We didn’t have to discuss much about what to do or how to do it, because it just seemed like we all felt the same sort of way. And Don was the one who was really the leader of the group because he just had this sense of knowing about him, this charisma, and this gentleness about him. As a teacher, all of the students really adored him because he just had this way of relating to people that was so unusual. He was interested in people as individuals and he had so much knowledge that he could share. And people just wanted to do whatever it was Don wanted to do. Because it was always cool. It was always informed, it was fun, it was intelligent. And he was a quiet guy, too. I mean, he could if you wanted to ask him questions about UFOs or philosophy or engineering or whatever, he could talk for quite some time on any topic he wanted. But he could also just sit and be. And that’s a lot of what Carla and he did. They really enjoyed each other’s company for like 12 years before I even met them. They had a very unusual kind of highly developed relationship. He was celibate, interestingly enough. He felt that that was the way he needed to go in this world. And so Carla was OK with that. You know, she tried it for a while, you know, but that’s why it works so well when I came along, because Carla had this natural attraction and it dawned that this is perfect, you know. We all got along that way, too. And it was just the way things were set up to be. It seems just like, again, preincarnated choices. Ra suggested we had been together in other lives where I think we were able to develop that harmony that we brought into this life, and we didn’t have to work at it. It was something so unusual. I’ve never seen it or felt it anywhere else before.

Yeah, that’s interesting and the whole idea of being celibate, that’s new, too. And, you know, it’s it’s fascinating. It’s certainly one way to experience life. And I found out that maybe in a sense, he was using that to maintain a lot of his vital energy. Because if you read, like Gnostic teachings, they’ll tell you when you engage in the practice of sex and have sexual orgasms, you’re basically releasing your Vital creative energy that you can use if you sort of channel it up back towards consciousness to create.

Well, yeah, I believe that’s absolutely true. But we also discovered during the Ra contact that sexual energy exchanges, which is what Ra called it, helped to power the Ra contact and made sessions longer. If Carla and I had sexual energy exchange and dedicated it to the Law-of-One and the Ra contact that the sessions were much longer. Because there is what Ra called vital energy that is transmitted there. The energy of the mind, the body and the spirit used for a spiritual purpose then could help to propel or generate more time and more opportunity for Ra and Don to talk and for us to get information. Ra didn’t tell us that. We discovered it on our own. So much of the Ra contact we had to discover on our own because it was a product of free will and they did not want to infringe on our free will. So we happened to discover that after about the 17th session.

Yeah, no. Fascinating. And anyone can listen to the books to hear aspects of what you just mentioned being discussed at length. And we can talk about that in future sessions too, because I am just curious about how that worked. But one thing about Don - what was his family like? I’m just curious, was he an only child as well? Did he have siblings?

You know, he was an only child, too.

And Carla?

She had two brothers, younger, And so she was actually the mom. She took care of them. Don was raised in what’s called the Christian Science Church. They believe that no disease is really physical in nature. They’re all caused mentally. And you can cure yourself by changing the way you think. The incorrect perceptions cause diseases, basically incorrect perceptions. So Don was raised in that church, but he did really well. He went to church, but he didn’t go in the church. When he was nine years old he said, “I understand that you really like the church, but I don’t think it has anything for me. So if you don’t mind, I’ll just sit out here in the car and you can tell people that I do go to church. You don’t have to tell them that I don’t go in.”

This was at nine years old? Yeah, that’s funny. Well, if the people in church are looking for him, they’re going to know that he’s not in church, you know. Well, that’s interesting. But that’s a fascinating age. And in my in my experience, it was eight years old when I actually started to pay more attention to religious teachings. That’s when it hit me as something’s off here. At that point in time. I mean, if you go back to my eight year old self, I’m looking like, OK, something is off for real. Today, after my spiritual awakening, I get it. It’s a stepping stone. It’s like building, you know, a sentence. You start with letters of the alphabet then you go to simple words, then you add in your subjects and verbs and objects, etc. And it becomes more complex the more you expand your consciousness. And it’s very easy to say our religions are quote unquote bad and stuff. But there are people who would gravitate to different religions as they expand their consciousnesses. And then the more you gravitate, at some point you might get to a state of being or a level of awareness where you say they’re great, but I no longer need them. And that’s fine, too, in my opinion.

Ra suggested, each of the religions on the planet have been subject to distortions. But each one also offers a pure path to the one creator for the seeker who is really looking for it assiduously. So all of them have that path, although you’ve got to go through a lot of dogma to get to it.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely a means to an end for you if you’re serious about spiritual development and kudos to you, if you could discern that you you know, you could do it another way and then actually be serious about this new way that you think will work for you better and then go through it. Now, with Don, did he come from a family of wealth at all? I was just curious about this.

No. average middle-class family. He was a good student when he tried to be. He didn’t really think a lot of school. As he said, he always sat behind the fat kids so the teacher couldn’t him. But then one year his mother asked him, “do you think maybe you could just see how well you could do this year in school? Because, you know, your grades aren’t great. If you want to go to college, you need better grades.” So he said, OK. And got straight A’s.

Definitely an advanced being right there. And let’s get to Carla. And I know this might be, you know, sensitive for you because neither one of them, Carla or Don… By the way, so Don’s life took an interesting turn. I came to learn that he actually, you know, towards the end of his life, wasn’t able to really function in society well and had to check himself into special care and then ended up taking his life.

That’s true, and it is such a complicated situation with all the ingredients that went into that. Interestingly enough, this next Saturday, the 7th will be the 36th anniversary of his passing. I wrote an article two years ago called the 30th Anniversary of Don’s Passing. And if anybody wants to get all those details, you can go on the internet and get it. Basically, we had a negative entity of the Orion Group; fifth density that was looking for targets of opportunity to cause problems for us. That was one ingredient. Don was also at that time going through initiation. That was another ingredient. Also, there was a deleterious energy exchange between Carla and Don when he was so worried about Eastern Airlines, which he worked for, going to go bankrupt, and he didn’t think he would be able to support us anymore. And he had other worries as well. So Carla said, why don’t you let me worry about those things? And you’d be like me, small and foolish and don’t worry about it. He did not realize since they had been, as Ra said, they had been as one since before time, that this energy exchange could happen. That, Don, could be rendered well, as Ra said, mentally and emotionally dysfunctional if this was allowed to continue, if they couldn’t undo it. And they didn’t. And so he put all of those ingredients together, negative entity, looking for targets of opportunity to accentuate the difficulty, the negative energy, the deleterious energy exchange that caused distortions of all kinds, wonderful targets of opportunity, I’m sure, for a negative friend to intensify even larger and larger. And then the initiation. Initiations usually have some sort of challenge you have to meet, you know. You have to pass the lions at the gate. And so I’m sure our friend had all kinds of ways of putting a magnifying glass on all of these problems Don was having. And that was really what eventually caused him to do that. I don’t think it was just his own hand that pulled the trigger. But after about two days, Carla and I were making love. And when we finished, Carla saw Don in a waking vision and he said, “you will not understand why everything happened the way it had to happen, but that happened appropriately.” And she saw him again in another day. So she saw him twice and he let her know that what happened was very traumatic for everybody here, but it was the way things needed to happen and we wouldn’t understand it until we also went through death’s door. Carla has gone through that door and now she knows and I’m still here. And it was a very traumatic situation, but he was a noble being up to the end. And as Carla said one of the greatest men she ever knew. You know, there are great men around the world. And he was one.

Yeah, well, thanks for sharing, you know. And indeed, that’s one of the more fascinating things I’ve come to appreciate about life on this planet. In that a lot of times what we’re doing, we won’t fully realize, understand or recognize until we exit. And our best bet is to be authentic. I mean, be as authentic as you can all the time. And that will help at least your spiritual growth as well as really when you’re, what I call, reviewing your life. When you’re seeing how you acted and how you responded, if you were authentic, it will feel good. Because in a sense, if you want to use the word judging, you’re like, “Why did I do that? That wasn’t really me, you know?” Just a fascinating thing you mentioned was the whole initiation piece. Now, is this an initiation as a movement into a new density, initiation as a movement into a new octave within a density? Is this information that you are preview to?

We did not get information at that time, nor did we ask for it. We didn’t think about doing it. But we do know that Don had gone through other initiations back in 1964, I believe. He asked Ra what had happened when in meditation he seemed to go on to another planet. There was gold and it was not the earth. And Ra mentioned that it was an initiation. There were other times when he went through initiations. He’d be meditating and he was meditating with another fellow and all of a sudden his arm was going up and down like this on the chair. And it was brilliant, blue, fluorescent blue as he was doing this. And he looked at it. He asked the other fellow, do you see that? And the guy said, “yeah, your arms going up and down and it’s blue.” And so he asked about that. And that was apparently an indication from his high herself as a type of initiation to indicate to him that he was living a life that was not understood by scientists or philosophers or doctors. It was not a logical life.

How are you supposed to discern that out of a blue wave? That’s so funny, but it’s still fascinating. OK, we’ll move on to your wife, Carla. And I mean, I had this question, which you’ve answered, and it’s that you didn’t know her before you got to begin working with L/L research.

I knew her for a year before. When I finally met them, I started coming to their Sunday night meditations every day, every week for a year. And then I helped them move from the apartment that they had in downtown Louisville to the place on the outskirts where we had the Ra contact.

OK. Any idea why she was so early on already practicing aspects of meditating?

Well, when she was 19, Don began an experiment in 1961 with 12 of his introduction to physics students from the University of Louisville. He’d gotten information from a meditation group in Detroit that if you got together and wanted to receive spiritual information, that contact would be made with a planetary mind. In this case, it was a fourth-density [inaudible 00:59:30]. But he didn’t tell his students that because being the scientist, he wanted to see if it would happen without him telling that. So at that time, the speed scientific school was all male. So these were all guys, except one of them had a girlfriend, Carla, and he asked, could I bring Carla to this meditation? And Don said, “Sure.” So that’s where she got into meditating at the age of 19. And curiously enough, they were in those days, people who were trying to channel would have their mouths open and shut, maybe their tongues would make a smacking or slurping sound. So Don didn’t tell them that that might happen or what was really their purpose. He said something interesting might happen. That was all he said. So they had all this stuff happening, but no words were coming out. So the fellow from Detroit came down to visit. He was the one who ran that group. He was the channel. And he channeled he says, I am Phaethon. We have beginning contact with you. But you’re afraid you’re making up the words yourself. So you need to speak the words. Don’t analyze them before speaking them. Analyze after the session is over. If you analyze during the session, you’ll stop the words. So after, that blew the scientific validity. So after that, Don, just concentrated on getting as much information as possible. Everybody learned to channel except for Carla. She didn’t want to channel at that time. She loved the silent meditation. So it would be 1974, 13 years later, before she would learn to channel.

OK, neat. Now, in the book, she’s really like a huge focus, right? Of course she’s the instrument, which is an interesting way of describing, you know, the role that she’s playing. But she’s the voice basically, or the instrument through which Ra is able to communicate with both you and Don. And answer Don’s questions, which were fascinating, by the way. I mean, anybody who is listening to this podcast and isn’t aware, please go get a copy of any one of these books. They are volumes that were released early on in the 80s - like one to five, I believe. And then they’ve have been redone and released again. And there is the audiobook in which Jim basically reads throughout. Fascinating stuff. Please listen. But they detail a lot of these psychic attacks by entities of the Orion Group, Per say, who are at a minimum fourth dimension, fourth fifth dimension beings. You know, to someone like me, when I hear a psychic attack, I’m thinking like black magic stuff. Like witchcraft kinds of things. So can you as best as you can describe what you mean, what what you understand to be psychic attacks in this sense?

Well, each group, such as our group that produces information that is full of light, that has the ability to change Consciousness in the positive sense of service to others, attracts the attention of negatively oriented entities who would like to take that power for themselves, because that’s the path of negative polarity. It is power for the self, separation from all other selves. And according to the general, well, the council of Saturn that has the Earth, as its might say, protege, or they’re trying to help us in the best way possible. They believe that everyone on Earth has the right to hear both positive and negative information in order to make up their minds for themselves as to how they wish to grow. So the negatively oriented entities have the right to offer challenges to positively groups like we were, or any positive group. So that manifests in different ways. Sometimes they attempt to take over the instrument by channeling through them. But that’s why Carla discovered years ago, back in 1982 that when you’re channel, you need to know how to challenge the entity speaking, wanting to speak through you every time you channel to know who you’ve got on the line. So we couldn’t do that for the Ra contact. We used protection around the circle, walking the circle one and the banishing ritual. But so the other thing that was all open then to the negative entities was to look for whatever distortions we had mentally, emotionally or physically that we had chosen ourselves either preincarnatively or in the incarnation. Any distortion away from harmony could be accentuated by the negative entities to cause difficulty that would hopefully, in their minds, stop the Ra contact. So that’s why there were so many, what we call psychic greetings or psychic attacks. We decided to use the word psychic greeting because we saw them as our brothers and sisters on the negative path who one day would unite with us in the sixth density and we’d all get together as one. So we called them psychic greetings and that was the reason. The whole thing is that they have the right to offer a challenge and to be heard just like we were being heard.

That’s fascinating. This is actually a good preview of another conversation we’ll have in the future, because understanding what the roles that these beings or these entities in these dimensions are playing for us is fascinating. Particularly because we are also moving to that right now, right? I mean, the planet is moving from third to fourth and then eventually fifth density. So we will be playing these roles. And it’s very important to appreciate the importance of these roles on our development. To me that’s fascinating. And I think I want to add here that having a spiritual awakening helps appreciate this more. If you’re still experiencing life without the understanding of separation, the illusion of separation, very much ingrained in that mentality, then concepts like this may be difficult. Now, I don’t claim to understand it all. I appreciate that it’s a necessary part of evolution as a soul being, but also acknowledging that before my awakening, I may have struggled and made this a lot more then than what it actually is, or made it worse than what it seems to be, or cause for fighting, blaming… Just not trusting oneself as much as I currently do. And my abilities to choose.

I would imagine, you know, Carla being the instrument, she felt the brunt of these attacks. So as her husband, can you describe one example about how you were subject to these psychic greetings?

One of my preincarnated choices was to balance the wisdom that I had with compassion. And the way that I did that was to program a lack of compassion for myself. That’s called opposite’s programming. So that when I made mistakes, I would get angry and break something. Break a hammer or a saw or whatever I was working with. It started when I was in the fourth grade. So that tendency to do that was accentuated on occasion when I was doing work around the house. I’d have that image in my mind to do that. I became more aware of that as time went on, and I was no longer subject to that because I knew that was something that would be accentuated. So I worked on it myself to balance it so that I wouldn’t do that. I wouldn’t present that distortion in my own perception that then could be intensified.

Nice example. I Like it. On a more personal level, was it a conscious decision for you and Carla not to have babies?

Carla always wanted to have six children if she could, but she was never with anybody that wanted to have children. So we did. And she realized that it wouldn’t have been a helpful thing during the Ra contact to have children to look after. So we did.

OK. Oh, neat. And have you read Journey of Souls by Michael Newton by any chance?

That’s where the opposites program comes from. And the Destiny of Souls.

So, you know, in reading that book, one of the things that they discuss is that when you are an advanced older soul, usually you would come in and then may not even choose to have children because of the karmic lessons that are involved with that. Or something like you’ve already done in the past. And, you know, in reading and listening to the law of one material and then also having been exposed to the Journey of Souls, I kind of thought about that in thinking about your group, actually, all three of you as really advanced beings. And in another conversation where we talk about the different densities, like one through seven and then eight, I think, will we dive into that a little bit more then? So you guys, before you even got in contact with Ra, I’m trying to imagine what was that first experience like where you said, OK, “Who are these guys? This is a new, you know, social memory complex that was contacted.” And, you know, what was that first experience like before you even started recording?

What was the Ra contact like in the beginning?

Yeah, like, you know, OK, so, for instance, I met you and we talked, and that all happened. Then we had an agreement to record here. So I’m trying to imagine if there was an initial contact with Ra before you were able to ask them, “Hey, in future contacts, can we record these messages into a book?” And I’m trying to ask what that first one was like.

Well, the first session happened out of the blue. We had no idea it was possible. Carla would teach students from the Sunday Night Meditation Group how to channel if they wanted to learn. And so we called those intensive meditations. And this was during an intensive meditation that Don and Carla were working with a student. I wasn’t even at the first one because I was out shopping for groceries. I was doing the cooking at that time. We’d only been together three weeks. So when they got together to teach the student, it was Ra that came through, surprisingly enough. And that’s the very first session that is recorded. And as you may remember, at one point there, I think there was a question about Don said, well, what about the coming earth changes? And then they say, we must pause and deepen the instruments state. So I had just walked in the front door, interrupted the first Ra contact. I had groceries in my arms and I was coming in the front door, which led to the living room where we had our meditations and channelings. And so I went down the hall to the kitchen and put my groceries away and just waited until the session was over. When it was over, Don said, this is it, could you transcribe that as soon as possible? Because this is it. I’ve been waiting 19 years for this and I said, “really?” And so I said, “OK.” And so as I was transcribing it, I said, “Yeah, yeah, this is it.” Now, Carla was not allowed to read any of the sessions until session twenty one when she said, “Don, please ask Ra if I could read because I’m tired of hearing you guys say is your mind, body, spirit, complex, hungry?” Ra said, “Sure. You know, we use our vocabulary. Her mind is not there. She’s not there. Don’t worry about it.”

Yeah. That’s fascinating. And intuitively Don already knew after this, you know, back and forth with Ra that this was it. And then in transcribing it the very first time you just knew that this was…

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

And you’re right, there is a certain level of, you know, the choice of words, the delivery that the average person just doesn’t speak like that. And then it’s so detailed, too and so nuanced. And Don actually asked that in one of the recordings, like, how do you guys know all this random information about the recording stopping because the cassette is broken and what caused it? Do you guys just sit around and watch us and tell us these things and stuff? It’s fascinating. And so, I mean, Don, being this very smart figure, I would imagine that right then with that first contact, he basically asked at that point if they could do multiple. Was that how the agreement came to be?

Yeah. He said would you be available for future contacts with us. And Ra said, “Yes, this instrument is to be able to speak our words.”

OK? Another interesting thing is the rituals before the contact, right? Walking around in a circle, preparing, Carla before the contact, using the materials that would help her return to her body because they were familiar to her (as far as her ability to use that, to remember this whole law of one stuff.) But the question I had is how did you become aware these rituals to begin with?

Ra gave us walking the circle of one. OK, so that came from them. And then they were aware that Carla was a member of the Episcopal Church Altar Guild, which meant that when it was her turn to dress the altar, she would use these very same symbols - The Bible, the Chalice, the Incense to dress the altar. And they gave her, as Ra said, the sight of paradise, which she seeks.

Neat. And today you guys continue to channel. So is your setup different from what it was for Carla, in a sense?

Oh, totally. Yeah. She had to be lying down on the bed. Just the three of us. And when we channel here, we social distance now. But we’ve had two sessions since the virus and now the governor’s asked us not to have meetings at her home. So we have a discussion going on about that. But normally we’d sit around the room where you and I were in… This is the room we channel in. And be socially distanced and we’re going to try to decide whether to do that still.

OK, neat. Yeah, keep us posted. I mean, that’s interesting. Here’s one. So you guys are channeling Ra and it feels like if Earth is a video game, which I use this analogy in my book, that you guys have found a cheat code to life, right? You literally found a cheat code, right? You’re able to peek behind the scenes. You’re able to ask some very detailed questions. So what was that like? How did that feel knowing that you had access to this information? Also knowing that you could really ask some very, very poignant questions about your experiences that you would get answers for. And to make this question even more challenging for you, I’d like to preempt it by saying I appreciate that Ra really took very good care in not going against the, you know, the distortion of confusion in a sense, or the idea of infringing on your free will to answer these questions for you. But still trying to understand what that feeling was like. We got this intelligence that can answer a lot of our questions, What was that like for you?

Well, the best I could say, it was a mountaintop experience, a golden experience, where we felt that the purpose of our lives was being played out right before our eyes. And it was something that I guess each of us probably had a different type of response or take on it. Mine was just, aww. Just hard to believe that I could be partaking in something like this. That all my life I had traveled various steps in order for me to be right there with Don and Carla and Ra. And at the same time, also had a feeling of familiarity that this was something that was part of my being, something that somehow had a place within me and that I had a place within it. So the emotions were just so full of joy, magic, love, power, variety, light, you know, just so much more than I ever thought I would do in a life. And I look back on it and think, you know, that was amazing. Yeah. How did that really happen? You know, and I have to say that in the very core of my being, I really, though there is a familiarity there, I can’t really explain it. You know, why was I so lucky? You know, so fortunate? It just was a beautiful thing.

I can only imagine. You know, I mean, the choice of questions you guys ask were definitely very universal in that different people from different parts of the world can certainly read this book and feel a sense of awe for one. And then for those on a spiritual path, answers to so many questions that you would not get in more distorted information that’s readily available through studies and teachings. Even though within all of them is still the same information. But this just cut through the noise and just went right to what we really need to appreciate. Is the idea that we are, you know, unique expressions of this infinite intelligence, helping the intelligence know itself infinitely in a way. But the book’s fascinating. I mean, after my awakening, I thought, whoa, I got all the answers I need. And then you just come across more information that just humbles you even more so to say, boy, you got more stuff to learn. But yeah, I mean, we’re a little over an hour here, which is how long I like to keep each conversation. And Jim, I cannot be more grateful that you’ve decided to, you know, come record podcast conversations with me. I also don’t take it lightly that I connected with you right here in Kentucky. It’s certainly fascinating. And I do appreciate your time. And I don’t know. I think this was a great, great way to get to know you a little bit and then set a foundation for future conversations where we can dive deeper into unique aspects about this volume of information and get your perspective, which will be super valuable. I mean, you were there when all of this was being made.

OK, it sounds good to me. Yeah, I enjoyed it, too.

Likewise. Guys, for anyone who is listening, please connect with Jim. You can go to and from there they have very well set up for you to connect with him on his personal blog. For you to access written material of the Law-Of-One. And then a lot of other information that they’re putting out, including a podcast as well that they have. And for me, you know how to connect with Roland, https://www.rolandachenjang dot com, got the book, Who and Why you are available paperback audiobook and Kindle. As always, I just can’t thank you so much for listening. Thank you for guesting, Jim. And just create an amazing day wherever you are.

Love and light to everybody.

Indeed. Thank you.