All right, so hello again. This is December the 11th, Wednesday, and we are here with Jim McCarty and Joel Terry from Chicago. And myself, I’m Heis, and we will have an interview tonight.

First of all, Jim, how are you tonight?

Good, well, we’re a little chilly here in Kentucky, so it’s good to be indoors. Nice thing to be doing to talk to other folks.

All right, I’m so glad you’re here with us.

Glad to be here.

The same thing we got in Chicago. It just, it dropped and dropped and dropped. The windchill factor they said the gusts were going down to minus 24.

Oh my goodness.

Wow! All right.

That’s cold.

And colder and colder.

Jim, it is, it is really a thrill to have an opportunity to go through a series of questions, to have an opportunity to speak with you. You are one of those people that I said, you know, when I was going through the Ra material, The Law of One, reading it, I was always curious as to who the guy was. You know, off in the back. And because, you know, the kind of the drama of what was going through that. A lot of it focused on what was going on with Carla and her condition as well. And…


You know, I always wondered about that where no one was sharing anything with Carla and what that must be like. Here’s this guy that is sitting back there. And, you know, you got to be the proverbial, you know, “fly on the wall.”


You got to see all of this come down and I was like, you know, that’s got to be a fascinating character. So for a lot of people I think on a Wednesday call, if anyone is calling in, they know who Jim is.There was Don Elkins, there was Jim McCarty, and there was Carla Rueckertt. And through that group, that is where the Law of One was channelled through.And it was stated that not until this dynamic had come together that they had created an energetic connection that made this level of, or this exchange, a possibility. And what I wanted to do, Jim, if you’ll tell us here, is maybe go back to the very beginning for yourself.

And what I was looking for, and I was wondering is, is what is that point in your life, what were your experiences in the beginning as a child? Or what was it that kicked into you that said this is where you want to direct your life, there was something, you know, is it something esoteric? Was there some large event as a child or as an adult that really turned you in the direction to it? And kind of guide us.

Well, I guess I was a late bloomer. I was 21 years old in college before I ever became interested in metaphysical questions. I just sort of sailed through my life prior to that, having a good time in high school. I got good grades fairly easily, went out for all the sports and enjoyed sports. I think that’s, Carla says it’s because they didn’t have “dance” in my little hometown of Lexington, Nebraska – 5,000 people.

So, I was a late bloomer. And after I got out of college, I decided to try to discover something about this school I found in Colorado, “Adventure Trail Survival School.” They were teaching what was called “Brain Self Control,” and “Contact with Advanced Intelligences.” And the idea was here that if you worked on those handful of problems in your own life, that were blocking the natural flow of brain energy up into the frontal lobes of higher consciousness, that then, if you did that, that you could begin contacting other intelligences.

That was just a natural part of the universe that teachers would appear when the student was ready. The old saying. So I went to that school and I learned what they had to teach me and I came back and worked there one year as a teacher.

And then I got my own piece of property in central Kentucky and had that type of a school program going for a couple of years. And then I heard about Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert from a group of folks on the other side of the county. This was the early 70s where the “back to the land movement” was really popular. And well-educated, young people from the cities, usually, were moving to the countryside. And we had food-buying clubs to get our food. And on the other side of the county there was one that also had a meditation group. And they were talking about this couple of folks in Louisville, Kentucky, Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert, that were having meditations in which you were able to contact intelligences that were supposedly extra-terrestrial.

So that sounded really interesting. And I came up and met Don and Carla. And for about a year a friend and I drove every Sunday night, it was a roundtrip of about 150 miles, to visit those [unclear] to hear what they had to say. And we got along so well that they invited me to join them in their work and be a third party. And Carla had been disabled for a while, not able to use the typewriter. They needed somebody to do office work and so forth.

But I was all interested in going out to Oregon and joining up with “Cosmic Awareness Communications.” I had been on the mailing list for a number of years. They had a channel, Paul Shockley, he was supposedly channelling the same entity Edgar Cayce channelled. The Akashic records of the planet.

So I went out there and had a wonderful two months, but all of a sudden I had a chance to earn a whole lot of money. I didn’t have anything against money. But that wasn’t why I went there. So I took a weekend off in my little trailer to retreat, to meditate, to think about what I should do.

So, 30 seconds into the meditation, I got the very clear impression, I needed to return to Louisville, Kentucky, and join Don and Carla. I’d just driven 2500 miles to get out to Oregon, and so now here I was going back to Kentucky. It took me a 5000 mile trip, over two months in general, here, to travel the actual 70 miles that separated where I lived in central [unclear interruption] Kentucky. Right.

So, that was how it started. I came back to join Don and Carla within 3 weeks of my return. The Ra contacts started as Carla was teaching an advanced student how to do the basic channelling. And Don happened to be the third person. We always needed 3 people. And I just happened to be out shopping at Kroger’s for groceries during the first contact.

So that’s how it all started for me.

So you were not on the first contact, could you explain now a little bit for, you were in the grocery store?

Right. Carla had a practice of helping students who wanted to learn to channel, doing that whenever there was the opportunity to, you know, the schedules meshed and all that. So a fellow decided that he wanted to learn to channel. Now Leonard was his name.

And so they got together in the usual channelling location which was at Don and Carla’s, in the living room. And Don happened to be there that day. He was a pilot for Eastern Airlines at the time, so he was gone half the time. But that particular day he was there. So that freed me up to go shopping at Kroger’s, to do the shopping for the 3 of us. And I didn’t think anything of the fact that, you know, Carla was teaching another fellow to learn to channel because that was a commonplace thing. She taught me to channel 25 years ago, I guess.

So, I was out shopping and when I came back I had a sack of groceries in both arms. So I opened the door rather clumsily. And you’ll notice that during the first contact it says, there is a question there, “Can you say anything about the coming planetary changes?” Ra says, “I prefer to wait until this instrument had again reached the proper state of depth of singleness or one pointness before we spoke.” And the reason they had to wait and get her deeper ’cause I just walked in the front door and interrupted the Ra contact. Not knowing that it was the Ra contact. So I just went on through into the kitchen and emptied the groceries out.

And they continued on and later on, after the contact was over, Don said, “I think we have something here that you need to transcribe as soon as possible.” And now that was very unusual for Don. He was very laid back. He didn’t really need anything done in a hurry. So that gave me an idea there was something special there. And after I got the session transcribed, we all, well, the two of us, Don and I, realized we had something worthwhile. Carla didn’t get to read any of the sessions until 21 of them had gone by because Don, being a scientist, he didn’t want to give her any indication of what was going on so it wouldn’t influence the outcome of the channelling.

That was one of the questions that I had inside my notes. And I thought it was 27 sessions. And I was, that was another thing, you know, that I thought of is, when was it, or who was it, or was it a collective that, you know, that both of you decided, or Don decided, you knew he was pretty particular about data, not to share that information. And what that must be like, what something that was coming out so profound, and Carla being unaware that, what was that like that, you know, your closed-door sessions?

Right. Well, in Carla’s opinion, it was a cruel joke.

But Don made the decision because he had been investigating UFO contact in these channelled meditations since the early 60s. And by that time, this was 1981, it was almost 20 years afterwards. He had a real desire to make this something that could be shown to the scientific community.

He was hoping that by using the scientific methods of not allowing her to be familiar with anything that was going on that it wouldn’t pollute the contact and therefore would lend credence to the possibility that it might actually be authentic.

Well, after a while, Carla got tired of Don and I saying things like, “Well, is you mind-body-spirit complex distorted toward fullness-emptiness?” Now we were kind of toying with her a little bit, just playing, playfully, but yeah, after a while, it just got kind of old for Carla, she just said, “Don, you got to ask, you know, just ask them if it’s ok.”

And so he did. And Ra said that there was no problem letting her read it because her vocabulary was, though it was large, they didn’t have to refer just to it. They could - she was a good channel. She was open and it wouldn’t affect the contact by letting her read it. So she finally got to read it. And she was very happy about that because, you know, I mean, you could imagine, knowing that this unusual behaviour is going on, people are keeping something from you. But they are doing it good-naturedly. But it’s unusual. It’s never really happened before. So that was the reason we asked, and got the information we could let her read it.

What was the, what was first information that kind of kept you and Don up at night? Because I mean it was probably early on, I would think subsequently there were several. But what was the first [inaudible] moment? Was it after the first contact was translated that you looked at each other and said, “Is this going to keep us up tonight?”

Right. That was it, because Ra spoke a language that really made sense to us. And it seems to make sense to a certain sort of person or a small percentage of people. For a lot of people, it’s too thick, it’s too like German philosophy or something. But for certain people it just has a way of being both precise and profound. That it is like an equation. It just makes sense.

So for us, right away, as I was transcribing, I realized that this was totally different of the way the answers were phrased and the precise choice of words and how it just seemed to have a certain poetry about it.

So for us, it was right away. And we were really thrilled to be able to partake of it. We knew right away that it was something special.

Other than a transcriber and an energetic anchor for Carla during those as well in order not to have any out of body experiences, what else would you say? Were you an organizer? Or what was the thing, the dynamic that you brought that Don and Carla were looking for?

Well, I had a physical energy that neither really had. At a later point, far down in the list of sessions, each of us had a certain quality we had about us. Carla was exemplified “love,” and Don “wisdom,” and I, “power” or physical energy. So that was what they really needed. Don had the wisdom and the experience over the years of his investigating this phenomenon in general, the channelling phenomenon, but other paranormal abilities as well, psychic healing and so forth – he had done a lot of work there.

He had that ability and that experience and that intellectual quality. And that intuitive quality, he could follow a question so well. But he really didn’t do work well. I mean he was good at running, he could run long distance, but he’d rather “fly the couch.”

Being a pilot, he figured that, you know, he’d done his thing during the week and earned the money, so now he needed to think. He said we all needed to spend more time thinking, and he did it. He actually thought a lot. And he frequently he’d be over on the couch drawing, yeah, invisible lines in the air – we never knew exactly what those were.

But Carla’s quality was “love.” All compassionate, unconditional love. And physically she had had rheumatoid arthritis for many years before that and had difficulty doing a lot of work and was… had been disabled since the age 25 and this was she was now 37. So that, you know, was something that had, she had apparently chosen before the incarnation to limit her physical activity so that she would focus inward, and do the inward work.

But I was quite physically active. Like I said, in high school, I went out for all the sports, and I liked to just do things with my body and do physical labor. When I was on the land starting my own school in central Kentucky, I didn’t have electricity or any kind of power. We had, I had heat by fire and light with kerosene lamps. And I did all the work, I built the cabin and built the road up to it and built a couple of other cabins – it was just something that I liked to do, even though I’m rather small. I’m like 5’ 7“, 140, I just have a lot of energy and I like to do things physically. And that’s what I basically have done over the years since there has always been physical work to do in the yard or so forth. Like I’ve just recently retired from eleven years of running my own lawn service.

So that was what I had to offer was physical labor and the energizing of Carla to do the contact.

Did you suffer any ill effects from doing the work because Carla would waste, you know, one, two, two and a half pounds during that, did you suffer any and then other ill effects that came out over time?

No, not really. Not right away. There was, Ra said, over a long period of time, the 106 sessions that Carla did, there was a wearing effect, a physical wearing, a weariness that she would take on, say like 85% of it, because the contrast between the 3rd density we inhabit normally and she was in normally, and where she stayed with those of Ra while the Ra contact was going on, even though she was not aware of where she was, apparently where she was was enough different that there was a wear on the body coming back and forth.

And Don and I would experience about 15% of that. And I got to say over the years I’ve noticed some of that. Although Ra said if we experimented with the physical energy and just were physically active, we would discover that we still had the same physical energy that we always had. It just didn’t feel like we had it. We felt tired. We felt weary.

Was it difficult to watch, I mean, from Carla’s standpoint, did you guys ever feel that you may have to shut down, I knew there were periods of resting and, where the contact was withdrawn. But was that difficult for Don and yourself? I mean, sidebar conversations, saying, you know,“are we doing the right?”

Well, it was one of those things, as Ra said, we had to wend our way through the experience on our own. Because there was only so much information that they could give us without infringing on our free will. So we had to discover over a period of time that having a session everyday, and sometimes two sessions a day, was much too wearing on her.

So we backed off. But we did that more because we discovered ourselves. Ra could occasionally give us clues as to what to do, but only clues. I mean, for example, there was always some sort of indication of the proper alignment.

At the end of a session, Don would ask, “Is there anything we can do to make the instrument more comfortable or to improve the nature of the contact?” That was just a standard question. And at that time, Ra had an opportunity, if they felt it was necessary, to give us some sort of a clue. And they always gave us some sort of an indication as to the proper alignment of questions.

Once they gave so minute a discrepancy of proper alignment that we had to think, “there is something else going on, they know, that minor discrepancy means there is something else going on. So the discussion Don and I had as a result of that clue by Ra led us to make more time between the sessions and to realize that we were not being wise in the use of the instrument. We were being overly stimulated to compassion, you know, to being of service to others because we realized this could well be very helpful information.

So after that clue, we decided to cut back on the periodicity of the sessions.

Go ahead, Heis.

Yeah, I want to ask you Jim. For how long had you known Don Elkins before he passed?

Prior to the Ra contact, I only knew Don for about a year. It was during that time that I was coming up from where I live, that homestead situation in central Kentucky. And meeting him and seeing him on weekends. And then eventually helping them move from that location to the one where we finally had the Ra contact. I started doing more things with them over that year. But I had only known him a year prior.

However, I gotta say that, when I first walked in, and met him for the first time, and looked up into his eyes, and like I say, I’m 5’7“ and he was 6’5“, I looked up, I saw these blue grey eyes that just seemed to have something familiar in them. And it was, you know, from that time on, it just seemed like things naturally flowed for us. We didn’t have to wonder, you know, whether there was a harmony between us. It was obvious to all of us.

The question that I had circled is “what was it like to move into that dynamic?” You know, was it easy? Or was it difficult? Because I mean, they, Don had already established some sort of legacy in the sense that he had put serious work into this contact and Carla had already done that. Was it effortless, it sounds like?

It was effortless. Because it happened slowly, over a period of time, was one of the reasons I believe it was effortless. And also because there was this natural harmony between us. I mean, Don and Carla had been together for 12 years prior to that. And during all that time he’d been working as a pilot for Eastern Airlines.

She originally met him back when he had a professorship at the University of Louisville as professor of physics and mechanical engineering. That’s when he began the original experiment of inviting 12 of his mechanical engineering students, which at that time were all male, scientific schools were all male then, in ‘61. So 12 of the students, plus the girlfriend of one of them, which happened to be Carla. And Jim Dewitt, which was the fellow who was her boyfriend who was in this group asked Don if it was ok to bring his girlfriend because she liked to meditate. And Don said, “Sure, that’s fine.“

And because he’d met her previously before, and he’d known about this, you know, feeling, this harmony between them, even though Jim Dewitt, her boyfriend, and she were married for 4 years, Don realized they were going to be together eventually. And afterwards, just humorously, Carla said, “why didn’t you tell me right away? It would have saved me 4 years of misery?” And Don said, “well, I knew it would be good catalyst.” [Laughs]. Well, anyway, he had that type of a sense of humor and a long range view of things.

So they had been together for 12 years. He had been investigating paranormal field for 25 years. And she helped him in 1968 write the book “Secrets of the UFO,” which was his summary at that time of his 25 years of experience.

So I joined them, they having had this momentum behind them. But like I say, we just kept doing more and more together and it seemed very natural. And the house that I helped them move into, each of us had our own room. In fact, I had a room back in another wing of the house. There was the office back there, and then there was my room. And there was another little kind of portico that separated the main house where Carla had her room and Don had his room. So each of us was rather solitary in nature and appreciated solitude.

But Carla and Don had this special harmony between them that they had had for so long that they were always watching TV together in the evenings, watching “M.A.S.H.” was their favorite program. And I was back reading things that I had been interested in for years. And then we’d get together for meals and maybe go out for a movie or maybe we’d get together and go out to eat.

So we had things we did together. But we also spend a lot of time alone and kept our own space.

When it comes to the, it sounds like it came pretty easy. But I was wondering among, because, you know, you are doing what the science is and that, was everybody just, because the dynamic of the group [unclear] was honesty really a given, or were the rules in the house something that was kind of spelled out as to how everybody functioned?

I guess the way it functioned was the blending of our personalities. Carla has this brilliantly shining blue ray of communication. Honesty is very easy for her. She can’t help herself. She speaks what’s on her mind and you don’t get away with stuff with Carla. And, you know, occasionally she’s wrong. But not usually. So, she sort of kept us honest. [Laughs].

Don was willing to be honest, but he was taciturn. He was a melancholy man, is what Carla called him. He’d known from age 26 that this was an insane asylum, and that the best you could hope for was the private room. That was his attitude about the planet earth. So, he had this ability to communicate, but was, you needed to draw him out a bit.

And I was sort of willing to learn to communicate. I hadn’t been real good at it throughout the years. But with Carla and the relationship that we developed, she was instrumental in helping me open up and become, you know, able to share my feelings and thoughts and, you know, be a regular human being instead of a recluse, which I had been for 6 and a half years on the land by myself before I met Don and Carla. The school I had going was only two months out of the year and the weekends, so I had a pretty solitary life. And enjoyed it a great deal. And prior to the Ra contact, I would say that was the highpoint of my life.

You mentioned there, drawing out Don. Did Don, you know, there was 12 years prior to stepping in there. Did Don ever share with you, you know, 20 years of research prior to, things that he had discovered, or did he start to put together an understanding, or did he ever speak about UFOs that he saw, and there was so much research into that. Did he share… ?

Yeah. Yeah. We had some wonderful conversations after meals in the living room. Maybe, you know, we’d just turn the TV off and talk about somebody. Maybe, maybe we’d been visited that day by an old friend who was part of what his past and his investigations. You know, there would be various things that would spark us. We’d sit and talk and have these basically “round the campfire” type of thing, you know, where you’d talk about things that you hardly ever talk about before. But he was very easy to draw out about that because it was his life’s work. He wanted to know about UFOs. He was 17 years old when he first got interested in UFOs. It happened early for him.

He was a student of that Mantell Flying School here in Louisville. He learned to fly early. And Tom Mantell was also a captain in the Kentucky Air National Guard. And he was the one in 1948 that died chasing a UFO. So Don’s flight instructor died chasing a UFO. Here in Kentucky it made national news as one of the first cases that really got people interested in thinking that UFOs might be real because here was a military individual died flying after a UFO, trying to, you know, chase it.

So his interest began early, and he had a lot of experiences to share. He and Carla had shared a lot. I mean, they’d been to the Philippines and to Mexico looking for psychic healers. And they’d found some good ones. They’d found some hoaxes, too. But they found some good ones, and Carla was worked on and Don was worked on. And so they had all this to share and, you know, I was just like a sponge drawing up all this information because like, I had been on my own just reading and doing things. And I hadn’t had the experiences that they had had.

So, yeah, we had a lot of late night conversations that were really fascinating. We especially had them when people were visiting from out of town. And were, you know, bringing that, the newness of their investigation, or being excited at being able to talk to somebody about this because so many people who read our material are isolated and don’t have anybody to talk to. And so when we have our homecoming gathering in the fall, they really are excited to come because nobody is going to think they’re crazy. You know, and they can talk of whatever they want to whomever they want for as long as they want.

So, yeah, we had a lot of great conversations.

It was… Can you share with us maybe what was the, you know, or in your opinion what you recall what a major point for you, what that catalyst that said, you know, I’m hooked and, you know, because this contact went on for years? Was it prior to that, something that Don had told you that made you wanted to…?

I missed part of the first part of the question. Could you repeat that please?

I was gonna say, in the beginning, do you know what the catalyst was? Or could you share with us something that, what was that event or did something, did Don tell something that? What was the point that said “I’m going to dedicate years to this?” And what was . .

Don’s dedication for it or mine?

No, I’m saying, “what was your catalyst?” What was the thing that said, “I really want to be a part of this”? Was there a particular event, you know, we all have these life-changing moments that come to us and says, “You know, I really want to be a part of that.” Or this is… [unclear]

Well [unclear] experience, it was after Don and Carla had invited me to join them. And I was really flattered, but I had been on this mailing list for Cosmic Awareness Communications for 5 years and had always wanted to go out to Oregon where they put it out, and where Paul Shockley lived, to help them out, because I had bought a lot of their material.

And when Don and Carla invited me to join them, I was really flattered but I went ahead and went out to Oregon. And like I said, after about two months, there came this opportunity to earn a lot of money. There was a fellow who was there from Canada. He was involved in mining diatomaceous earth, which at that time, and still has, a lot of use, for preservation of material, people storing food long-term, and so forth. And he needed somebody to be the general manager of that in the United States, to help him, you know, sell it here in the United States. He offered me the job, which at that time, he said, would pay about $100,000 a year.

Well, in any year, that’s a lot of money. And so I took the weekend out to think about it because I hadn’t gone out there for money. I didn’t have anything against money, but it seemed really odd to me that, here was this opportunity to earn a lot of money, I just wanted to think about it. And I wanted to meditate on it.

And it was at that time that it took 30 whole seconds for this, like, comet, to arc across my inner sky and tell me, “you need to go back to Carla and Don in Louisville and join them in their work.” And it was something I was just astounded to become aware of. Because here I’d travelled 2500 miles and, and I wanted to be here for 5 years. And all of a sudden I’ve got to go back to where I came from. And that sounded ironic. I’m not a person who likes to go back. But it just felt right. It felt like the “thing to do.”

So, you know, like all along my life it’s felt like the next step sort of naturally presented itself to me, and if I was just open to it, and naturally took it, all would be well. So I said, OK. Here we go, back. And so, you know, at that time, that I really decided that, you know, Don and Carla was where I wanted to be, that that feeling that I’d had where I looked into his eyes, and when I was with Carla, that was something that was valuable. It wasn’t just, you know, a passing fancy, it wasn’t something to be ignored. It was something to be investigated and to be joined up with and see what happens.

Now during the subsequent years of this material, I mean there’s just a lot of people, there’re hundreds of thousands, literally, so many people that I know. I literally, this is funny, I’m in a hotel right now, and the last week an individual was sitting across from me and we were talking and she was kind of breathing heavily. And I said, “Are you OK?” And she said, “Well, I’m fine today.” And we started talking about material and stuff and I said, “Well, I kind of like to meditate in the mornings.” And she said, “Well, I forgot my stones.” And when she said “I forgot my stones,” well I kind of opened up and said, “OK, well, you know, I’ve got a handful of crystals here in my pocket.”

And so we just started to converse, and then she said, that you know, she had read “The Reincarnation of Edgar Cayce.” And I said, “What? Phenomenal!” And then she says to me, she says “You know Ra? Yes?” And I said, you know, I’m thinking, you know, Ra? Ra? Atah? I just said, “Ra, you know, Y –E – S -is that what you are saying?” And she said, “Yes.” So she starts talking about Ra [unclear] as well.

So there is literally hundreds of thousands of people that are out there. But from [unclear] we get a higher energetic vibration from being in higher energetic, meeting other beings such as [unclear]. You [unclear] had a catalyst of people over the years.

Have you had any what you would call mystical experiences? Maybe if you could share those with us from all these various people that you’ve met over time?

Well, mystical experiences are kind of hard to describe. Carla is the one who has really been the mystic Christian. That’s her real field. She has a better way of describing that.

The experiences I have had, I would say are more related to that therapy-type of program that I went through before I met Don and Carla when I first went to that “Laughing Coyote Mountain Adventure Trail Survival School” outside of Blackhawk, Colorado. He taught a type of therapy that, if you were successful, they frequently reported what was later called a “frontal lobe experience,” where the frontal lobes begin to open up. And you begin to feel the sense of unity with the creation. And it’s especially felt in sexual energy exchanges and in the moment of orgasm. The orgasm becomes centered in that area between the eyes, in the brain. And the frontal lobes just opens up and you get this feeling of incredible pleasure and pressure and unity and just energy flowing through incredibly.

Now I’ve never really understood a lot of what happened during those experiences. I have had a number of those. We did, at one point, ask Ra something about that. Ra suggested that this was the beginning of the opening of the indigo ray, that center between the eyes. And that as that ray began to be more balanced with the rest of the rays of the body, that one could eventually experience the full experience/presence of the one infinite creator could be had. And they said I had much which to look forward. And I think that is still in what we would call the future.

But what I’ve experienced so far has been a beginning balancing, I believe, of the energy centers, so that more energy can come through freely without being blocked by my various distortions. And it was those distortions, a handful of pre-incarnated choices that each of us has, that as we are able to remove more and more of them, it is the natural function of the brain to channel through this energy that is given to us freely, what Ra called “the intelligent energy” that would come from our sun body or the Logos that comes in through the soles of the feet goes up through the energy centers and then as it is able, it is expressed at each energy center.

And as we are able to balance those centers, and work on them, the lessons that we program for ourselves are actually triggers that help us to move more energy through. And as we are able to balance ourselves and clear ourselves, then we are able to have unique experiences, each somewhat different than anybody else’s.

It is sort of a riddle or a puzzle to come up with the ultimate answers. But eventually I believe that it all reduces to the fact that all is one. And we each have the variety of ways of having that come through in whatever experiences we’ve had in meditation, in dreams, in sleep, in those “a ha” moments that come to you during the day and you didn’t even know you were thinking about that.

So that is the best answer I could give, I think.

Now, which brings me to a question. Do you channel?

I have channelled for quite some… well, I channelled for 25 years. Then about 5 years ago, I decided to give it a rest unless I was needed in a channelling circle. Because after 25 years of pawing and scraping and working at it the best I could, I became a mediocre channel. And I decided that the planet’s got enough mediocre channels. And why do we need another one when I could be helping out Carla and using my energies more efficiently. So, yeah, I channel, but…

Now, now Jim. Was it something that came to you or was it something you chose to do and experience to figure out how to do it?

Well, Carla can take you so far in the way she teaches it. But eventually it has to do with your personality and how willing and able you are to hang your ass over the line. And to be willing to make a fool of yourself. Because you have to be able to let go. Carla gives the analogy – learning to channel is like throwing a number of balls, and you can’t catch another ball until you throw the one you’ve got. You can’t get another concept from the contact until you throw the one, or speak the one, you’ve got. And sometimes people aren’t constructed in such a way, or they don’t allow themselves to hang out over the line and be willing to be a fool.

So I’m sort of that nature [laughs]. Why, I can hang myself out over the line to a certain point, but it never seemed like I got any better. And it just seemed like I was, I hadn’t done as well as I wanted to do. So I figured, we’ve got Carla here. Let’s let her do a really good job and let’s invest our energies in other ways.

I had heard that you and Carla used to channel the same source. And then I heard that you used to be able to pick up where she left off. Is it easier to channel when someone else is there and has established a source, and then you…

It is easier to channel when there are other people there, for sure. We never channel unless we have 3 because there’s a certain kind of energetic support that comes from that third person. So we always have another person there. But yeah, when there are more channels, it does help.

And whenever we have channelling circles, it’s common for the channel to move from channel to channel. And if it’s people that are learning to channel, there could be as many as 4 or 5 people. We usually don’t take more than that because it’s more difficult to work with a larger number of people. But each of them then is able to pick up where the other leaves off.

And any, again, you’re not, at the time, so certain that that’s going to turn out that way ‘cause you’re hanging your ass out over the line. But once you go back and you look at the material, you can see how it’s a seamless flow of information. But at the time, if you’re really concentrating, you’re aware of usually only one or two concepts at a time. You are not, and you don’t try to remember what you’ve channelled. You know, you’ve got to be there in the moment. Later on, you can use your sense of analysis or, you know, you can be sceptical later on. At the time, you need to be really gullible and you need to get the words out.

So, yeah, frequently the same entity channels through a number of channels. And Carla has done that a number of times. But it’s a fairly common thing.

I’ve never channelled, per se, but I, my moment made me really look into a lot of this information. And it’s the same question I kind of have for you, is, was it, in the sense that I was raised up under the umbrella of Christianity and Catholicism, and it was not until my grandfather died that he spoke to me, just to kind of like the back of my head opened up, kind of like a magnetic pull, and then I heard his voice. And that being the case, and he had already been dead for a couple of hours, and that was a major catalyst for me.

Because, you know what? He wouldn’t have said that if it really wasn’t important. But, you know, trying to bring, it took me years, really, to talk to anyone about it. But being a predominantly Christian nation that we are, and then, you know, my thing was is I looked at channelling at first, and I’m like, eh eh, you know, it feels a little “fringe,” and then I started looking at all these other books that were out there. Whether it be the stuff that material from George Green, or whether it be the material from Don Elkins and yourself, and whether it be the material in “Conversations with God.” I started looking at this, and there’s a tremendous amount of information which would go under the guise of channelling. And then there were so many scientific references to it, when I poured into it.

A question for you though. Do you refer to it as the “The Ra Material.” Do you refer to it collectively as “The Law of One?” Or how do you speak of this? Is it difficult for you to bring this up? And what are the reactions from people that, you know, predominantly Christian, do they just see this as evil? Or, you know, I mean there’s got to be some strong reactions.

Oh, yeah, all kinds of reactions. We originally referred to it only as “The Law of One.” It was the Schiffer Publications, the Dawning Company at the time, actually, a subsidiary of Schiffer, that was trying to ride on the coat tails of the Seth material from Jane Roberts, and so they renamed it themselves, “The Ra Material.” And over the years we’ve been, you know, we called it either one, but originally we looked at always “The Law of One.” But so many people call it “the Ra materials” that we just use either term interchangeably nowadays.

But we’ve had all kinds of responses. Carla’s brother sort of excommunicated her for 23 years because he’s a basic fundamentalist Christian. But then he had his own awakening and they’ve eventually come together. Occasionally, people will be sceptical and want some sort of an affirmation. We’re willing to answer questions, you know, if people want to look at it.

They’re free to look at it however they want to, I mean, it’s, you know, free will is the most important thing here. If you’re really attracted to the material, then it’ll, you know, it’ll have its movement and its path through your life. And if it’s not meant for you, that doesn’t mean that you’re a lesser person or it’s, you know, it just means that at that time, it’s not your step. And maybe at some future point it will be or maybe it won’t be. Maybe you’ll get there some other way. It really doesn’t matter, you know. We’re all, you know, walking our paths the best we can.

And we have these opportunities that come our way. And when there’s a sense of magnetism, almost, like the iron filing to the magnet, you know, there’s that inner intuition, that still, small voice that gives you a real hint that “well, you ought to look into that because there’s something there.”

Then you follow up and like you and the lady with the crystals, who was looking for her stones, you know there’s just these seemingly magical ways where people come together. And I think a whole lot of that is due to our openness, our willingness to be “out there” and then to share unconditional love and to see people as yourself. To see them as the Creator. So all kinds of wonderful things happen when you start on this journey. I think it’s like a spiritual momentum is gathered. And you begin interpreting things in a more positive light, in a more incarnatively congruent light, you might say.

Things just start happening. And it’s a blessing.

When the, you just mentioned earlier, and I think a lot of people just realized there, or think of the material you have at L & L Research is strictly, you know, the “Law of One.” And you were mentioning that you have tools, and you have materials. What are the best tools that you feel that you have, and you guys can provide at L & L Research? And maybe kind of outline if it’s either stepped and what are…[unclear]

Cumulatively, there’s all kinds of things. I mean Carla comes, she’s a cradle Episcopalian but she had mystical experiences her whole life long. So that she never took things literally. She was always getting a deeper meaning to things.

My own path, like I said, I was fairly well just an all-American boy until 21 and then I started thinking about the meaning of life where, you know, who was I, where was I going, and so forth. And Jane Roberts, curiously enough, and the Seth material was very instrumental for me. And coincidentally, I started reading her probably 10 years before I met Don and Carla. But she was the one who suggested to us that we send our material to the Dawning Company or Schiffer Publications, it turned out to be.

I’m curious about that. That was, that’s a lot of material as well.

Oh yeah, yeah. I was very interested in that. So I think that prepared me mentally and gave me a feeling of authenticity just, you know, the way Seth would respond to queries. It wouldn’t be what you would expect. And I think that’s the unexpected… Heinich always said, “the stranger a report of a UFO, the more likely it was it was true.” So, you know, that factor of the wildness, the strangeness, is an interesting factor.

Paul Solomon and his work, his channellings, and Paul Schockly, of course, of the Cosmic Awareness Communications, and the channelling of the Akashic Records, those have been very helpful to me.

Don was raised a Christian Scientist, so they were always of the opinion that any illness that came your way was mentally created and could be mentally healed. And they didn’t go to orthodox physicians. So he had that framework from his childhood. And he had met most of the people who had done work back in the 50’s. Being a pilot at an early age, he was able to fly to any part of the country and talk to whomever had had, you know, whether it’s Charlie Hickson in Patsagoo, Louisiana or George Adamski out in the deserts of California or George Van Tassel or George Williamson or any, you know, Andrew Puharich.

He’d gotten to talk to all these guys and was in on what was going on there, you know. He was, he had so much to draw from that he had a way of putting it together himself. And the Ra contact was really his big opportunity to finish putting the puzzle pieces together. I mean, he’d been doing it a long time, so he… The first book is really Don getting these errant puzzle pieces together and try to figure out how things were going, you know, how things worked. And then the book 2, he really, you got down to more organized type of questioning.

The material from, when you look at David Wilcock and so much of his insight that, you know, there are many scientific breakthroughs in the material, but it took, you know, 10, 15, 20 years to discover, really, or to translate in that sense to a physics level what was translated, you know, back in the early 80s. Did you guys ever have any, or were there any concerns with any kind of “men in black,” because the contact that you had seemed to be pretty significant and the material, what was coming out, or [unclear] was it held pretty close to you guys’ chest, and when did you guys decide that this information needed to get shared? When did the experiment open up to “this is something that needs to be told?”

Oh, right away. I mean Don was so excited about that this. The first one he contacted was Dr. Andre Puharich. He was the one that brought Uri Geller to the United States, and wrote the book “Uri.” And Don and Puharich had been talking back and forth for quite some time, and had been involved in some activities together, the “mind link” in 1977, a group of psychics got together and attempted to help heal the planet. And they were together on that.

There was a lot of interaction with people from the beginning, especially other researchers. And I think it was probably session 14 or 15 where we finally had enough material together, we sent it to the Scott Meredith literary agency in New York City. And Mr Meredith was kind enough to write us back a 3 page, single-spaced, typewritten letter telling us why the Ra material, or the “Law of One,” had no chance of being a success in the commercial market [laughing]. He went into the grittiness of the German epistemology, and the “question and answer” format went out back with Socrates, and [laughs] yeah.

So we were sharing it wherever we could, you know, to try and find a way of making it available to people. Don had, before he died, he had two things he asked of Carla. Number 1, now would she make whatever material we had available worldwide for free? And would she head up a spiritual community? And so that gave the material out and then foremost on our minds, and especially Don’s mind, from the very beginning.



And Jim? What I would like to do, if that’s OK with you guys, that I check with the listeners to see if any of the listeners have a question.


Now, those listening on BBS radio, there is a toll-free number you can call to BBS, and then we can hear you also. So I’ll give you the phone number, in just a moment I will open the lines. And if you have a question, shout it out. The toll-free number, if you are listening to BBS radio, is 888 627 6008. Let me open up the lines. Alright, the lines are open. Any questions from the listeners on the phone line?

That means a “no,” so you’re asking the right questions, Joel. That’s a good thing.

I have a sort of a question.

Oh, Don. Yes, go ahead.

Can you do like a real quick overview of what you and Don Elkins think of the UFO phenomenon? Don’t go into too much detail. We’ve all heard a lot about it, but what’s your take on it?

Well, it was Don’s feeling, and this is basically corroborated in his questioning of Ra, quotes of Ra, that the entire UFO phenomenon is a means of introducing the concept of mystery, and the possibility of the infinity to the mass mind of planet Earth. That that, they felt, was the best thing they could offer to help those on Earth on their spiritual journeys, wherever they were. So this mystery would cause people to begin asking questions. And maybe the questions would be formed around a specific contact that they were familiar with, and the features of that contact.

Those would vary from person to person, but the overall effect was generally shared by everybody that has, you know, whether it’s a close relationship or a distant relationship from the UFO phenomenon, it has the ability to cause you to ask questions.

Now, depending on how long you stay with those questions, you know, “what is life?,” “who am I?,” “where am I going?,” “where is the people from?,” “what is other life like?,” “what does this mean to me?,” all these questions that come up, as you begin to concentrate on them, however much energy and time you give to them, it is usually an indicator of how you are moving on your spiritual journey.

Some people spend a lot of time on it. You know, they devote their lives to it. It becomes a feature of their seeking that enables the seeking and makes it more successful. And for others, it may just be an occasional question that will pop up. It varies for people. But that was his basic feeling about the UFO phenomenon.

If people could begin to entertain these two concepts, the concept of mystery, that there may not be solid answers to everything, you may have to think of things for yourself. You may have to get into yourself. This whole journey may be your responsibility.

And infinity, the “no end” to things? What does that mean? When I was a little kid, the question always came to me was, “well, OK, after I’ve gone infinitely in a certain direction, then what?”

So, all these questions, at whatever level you are, can spur your spiritual journey and help you get closer to those truths that are, as it turns out, within you.

Alright, thank you, Jim. Thank you, Don, from Ohio, for your question, and I’ll check one more time with the listeners. Are there any further questions?

OK, one of the things that I was curious is you had mentioned, you know, the, prior to making the big decision to move in with Don and Carla, and to work with the group, that you meditated. How old were you and when did you start to meditate and what was your catalyst to that?

Probably about 21. Like I said, I got interested in world religions at that time when I was a senior in college. And I did a little meditating then. I lived at the Newman Center, I wasn’t a Catholic, but that was where Father John Scott lived, and he was a radical on campus. And so that’s where the radicals lived [laughs]. And I was started thinking about these other things. And I did some meditating then.

And after I moved to Iowa (?), I joined the “teacher core” after college and went to Florida and began meditating more there and having time to investigate Jane Roberts and some other sources of channelling that didn’t turn out to be as quite as helpful to me. And then when I had my land in ‘74, I bought my own land in central Kentucky and lived there before I met Don and Carla 7 years later. I meditated there a good deal. I took the mornings out, using that therapy technique I’d learned in Colorado. I took the mornings for writing, for long essays, for reading, for thinking, for meditating, doing the spiritual things. And then the afternoons and the evenings I spent in physical labor. But it was at that time, I guess, I really got interested in meditating and had a practice then that was probably the best, actually, I’ve ever had.

Carla and I now do short mediations at the beginning and end of the day, 5 to 10 minutes, and occasionally longer. But meditation seems like it’s, it’s always a tool that’s there, and it’s available to be used as much, or as little, it’s, it always has this value to it for me, what I’ve discovered over the years.

Do you look, I mean, do you do a breathing meditation? Is it sitting, forgetting, is there one certain thing that you’re focused on?

The technique I learned was from another meditator out at that school in Colorado. And that was sitting with the eyes closed and the focus between the brows to look for the brightest point of light in whatever field of vision you had there. And then to focus on that light and let it become as large as possible. That usually made it somewhat brighter, but the light would become a little more dim. And again, within that new field, inner space [unclear], look for the brightest point of light. And continue doing that. And the goal, I believe, is to become the light, actually. But for me, I’m still working on being surrounded by the light.

So that’s my technique. Now there are all kinds of other techniques, you know, which whatever works for any person, is you know, the way to go. It’s been our experience over the years, people had all different kinds of techniques of meditating. They all seem to work if you’re really focused on the technique and give it your energy and give it your time. It works.

Well, I was, and, focusing on different, I mean, the times, I mean, I was born in the 60’s, so I knew you were living during interesting times. Now, was there any other groups that you were interested in at the time? Did you look at Ram Dass or Timothy Leary or did you go to the desert to do peyote with the Indians? Or was there any other…

Well, I was a very happy member of the hippie subculture, you know, drugs, sex and rock and roll was the 60’s experience for me. And that led to Timothy Leary and that led to Ram Dass and various other thinkers. The first book I read that really had a, was the book on “The Taboo on Knowing Who You Are.” Let’s see, who was that? [Unclear]

The book on The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, and all of a sudden I’m blanking on the author of that. Anyway, that was the book there [laughs], probably because it was in the 60’s I’m not remembering the author.


Dylan said he was looking for someone to help him remember the 60s [laughing] because it was a blank to him. Yeah, there was a lot going on then, and that was just the time…

Someone told me I had a good time… [laughter]

Yeah. That was the time of just so much thought and so much individual expression. It was a wonderful time to be alive. And at the end of that time period, I found myself in the teacher core, and I was trying to look, I was looking for a way of being of service to others. And then I went from teacher core to this book, The Raspberry Exercises: how to build your own school, and start your own school and build your own house.

So, the back of that was this fellow in Colorado with the brain self-control. And that led me to Kentucky. And that led me to Don and Carla. So there are just so many things that came from that time and I’m sure that each person has something going on in the life pattern that serves that purpose. Because we all seem to have these, you talk to anybody else on the spiritual journey, and they’ve had all of these coincidences, these magical happenings. They can tell you about what’s happened. And it’s so inspiring to hear different people’s stories, because there’s so many ways of travelling this path and coming together. And realizing that love is really the answer to all our questions. And that it’s because we’re one being. And what else would we do with one being? We would love that being, you know, as our self, because it is our self.

So yeah. There was so much going on in the 60s, and as a result, the 70s was the “back to the land” movement and meeting Don and Carla.

As it’s, you know, we live in more than interesting times now, and it can be pretty stressful and it can be pretty crazy. What is it now? What are the things that bring you peace right now?

Well, being with Carla is the most important thing. And it’s in a situation which you wouldn’t think you’d find it. She has been down for two and a half years with this back surgery wound, that is very, very slow to heal. And it has given us a chance to find this love between us. And I’m a literal person, we repeated the “everyone having their own bedroom” when we moved to this house. But Carla’s surgery necessitated her moving into my house, into my life, into my heart, into my being. And it’s been extremely literal.

And for me, that’s really, you know, the beginning of things, is this literal translation of things. And I’ve watched her move in, and we’ve had this love come, you know, spring up even more strongly between us. That’s brought us together and we just love each moment. And another person would look at this moment and say “you’re kidding,” you know, “she’s been in that bed for two and a half years.” “How can you possibly be having a good time?”

But I gotta tell you, it’s really possible. It doesn’t matter where you are. It’s who you’re with. You know that old “what would you do if?” What, “would you rather be in heaven with a fool, or in hell with a saint?” And, you know, basically, that’s it. And we’ve just discovered this companionship, this team feeling between us, of how we really complete each other. And that’s been because we’ve been so close together, literally, so close together over these last two and a half years.

All right. It’s 6:57, so we have to stop the show, and this was so wonderful. Thank you so much, Jim, for being here with us.

It was an honor.

And thank you Joel for asking those wonderful questions.

Oh yeah. Thank you so much.

All right. Love to you and to Carla and you know I thank everybody for being here on the phone, and on BBS radio. Thanks to BBS radio, and hey, until next time.

And Jim and to everyone else, may you have an even more loving and synchronistic encounters with people out there. Thanks everybody. I appreciate it, Jim. Thank you.

Thank you. My love to you all.