Carla and Tobey Wheelock were interviewed by telephone on Monica Leal’s In the Now - Questions and Answers program on blogtalkradio on Friday, March 30, 2012

Monica Leal, Moderator Howard Batie, Transcriber

Hi, everyone! This is Monica Leal, welcoming you to this special edition of the L/L Research radio program, In the Now, Q & A with Carla L. Rueckert. Today is Friday, March 30th, 2012. Carla L. Rueckert is an author, mystic, seeker and primary channel for L/L Research. You can visit L/L Research’s websites, and – that’s “bring”, the number 4-T-H dot org. We have a special guest tonight, Tobey Wheelock, who’ll be talking to us about The Law of One Re-listening Project. Tobey discovered The Ra Material at Borders Bookstore in Ann Arbor, Michigan, in 1988. He was in Ann Arbor for Law School. Little did he know that the Law he would be spending a lot of time studying would be The Law of One. The Law of One are quite familiar with the reference site, It is used quite frequently in discussions over at to reference quotes and to back points made about our understanding and interpretation of The Law of One. Well, we can all thank Tobey for that! Tobey created this database back in 2003 to make studying The Law of One easier. He had shown it to Carla, and she had encouraged him to make it publicly available. And the rest, as they say, is history! We depend on a great deal and we’re very thankful to Tobey.

Book 5 material to, only to discover that in order to add that material into each session in the order in which it occurred, he needed to re-listen to each session. That’s how The Re-listening Project got started. Tobey will share his experience with the Ra contact Re-listening Project and discuss the effort currently underway to create a single-volume Scholar’s Edition of The Law of One books. Tobey, I understand you’re working on an update to that will include a re-listened version there, instead of at a separate site as it is now, is that right?

That’s right.

OK! Wonderful. We are going to talk quite a bit more about that, and Carla, just wanted to make sure that you’re with us…

I am.

All right! Excellent! We’re going to have a special show tonight, talking specifically about this re-listening project, so we would like to ask our listeners to call in only if you have a question specifically about the re-listening project. Normally, we take questions regarding any sort of spiritual issues, but tonight we’re going to be focused on the re-listening project. If you would like to call in with a question for either Carla or Tobey regarding this, you can call 646-595-2294, that’s 646-595-2294. And be sure to hit the “1” key to let us know that you’d like to ask your question live on the air.

But first, I’m going to start with our opening riff that Carla chose for tonight, and you will see why, once I read this to you. As you’re listening to this, all of you Law of One scholars out there, see if you can detect something… different. This is from Ra Session 95, Question 4.

“Questioner: Thank you. The new room that we choose for this working will, of course, be carefully cleaned and marred surfaces made well. We shall also use the Banishing Ritual of the Lesser Pentagram prior to a working. Is there anything else that Ra could suggest? I would like also to know if there’s anything in particular that you might suggest with respect to the particular place that has been chosen for our new location.

I am Ra. We scan the recent memory configurations of the questioner. Firstly, there have been some less than harmonious interactions within this dwelling. The dynamics of this interaction were potent enough to attract a lesser thought form. Therefore, we suggest the salting and ritual cleansing by blessed water of all windows and doorways which offer adit into this domicile or any outbuildings thereof. Further, we suggest the hanging of the cut garlic cloves in the portion of the room which has accommodated those whose enjoyment has turned into a darker emotion, centering upon the area we find you call ‘the wet bar’. Also, the room intended for the sleeping which is found near the kitchen area. The appropriate words used to bid farewell to those of the lower astral shall be used in connection with the hanging of the garlic cloves for the period of approximately thirty-six of your hours. We believe that this is equivalent to two of your night periods and one of your lit periods. This should cleanse the house, as you find it, to the extent that it is neutral in its vibrations. We suggest that you then request of this living entity that it now would be welcoming and absorbent for the vibrations of harmony, love and thanksgiving which this group shall then, as this incarnational experience proceeds, offer to the domicile.“

The extra phrase which Tobey captured shows the Confederation’s underlying concepts about the house. Carla, would you like to expand upon that a bit?

I would. When I thought about the opening riff for today, I wondered, well, what of the phrases that Tobey recaptured from the original tape changed the timbre and meaning, the nuance of the answer that the Ra Group was giving? And this is the first example that he offered, and I liked it a lot. Now of course, [in] all this long thing about, you know, cleansing the room and making it ready for magic, obviously we are assuming that everything is alive. We’re assuming that this is a magical ritual that we’re working on, and we’re attempting to ‘hit the mark’ as far as being able to be in our magical personalities and being ready for the session. But, there were two places in the last two sentences where the word ‘vibration’ was used, and I think that’s how come the Scribe missed this phrase. Because, you know, when you’re typing and then you have to go back, you’re usually listening for a word, and you could easily enough miss this phrase just in the process of typing it for the first time. I imagine that’s what happened. And it makes sense in its own way if you don’t have the added phrase. But the added phrase was, “We suggest that you then request of this living entity that it now be welcoming and absorbent…”, indicating that the house is a living entity, indicating that everything that we think of as basically inert, motionless, is actually alive. Now I’ve always felt that this is true.


I grew up believing in my Grandmother’s wonderful philosophy of resistentialism. She said that items were jealous of us for being able to move around, so they resisted. So the bread always fell butter-side down, and so forth, and that was resistentialism. But imagine the difference in the world between a house being a place where you as a living entity act as an actor on a stage, but the stage is irrelevant, and you, as a living entity, interacting with a living entity of a house to create the one unique and ever of all time vibrations of you and that house together.

As it happens, we did not ever move into that house. That house was not to be. It was only three miles from the airport – it made much too much sense.


Instead, we came back here to Louisville because Don was just so hungry for Louisville and we found the house that we’re living in now. But we didn’t get to stay there very long with Don because he died the next year.

So anyway, that house would never have been the kind of vibrational place that this is because of the fact that in that house, the previous tenants had been some members of the New Orleans Saints, that team, and their loved ones, and they had had a shooting there, and it was fairly violent. Also, the house led directly into the stable. It was an outhouse. There was no way you could keep things really clean. So I was just as glad that we didn’t get that place.

We ended up here but, sadly enough, I think we did only one session here before Don became too ill to be able to do sessions. 1 So that was the end of that. But, at any rate, that is a wonderful example of the kind of thing that Tobey was then able to add to this. Now, of course, if you’re not crazy about The Law of One, you’re not going to think that the addition of a phrase here and a sentence there is going to be that exciting. But if you’ve actually gotten into the material and you’ve worked with it some, and you see how it works and you see how everything fits together, and then you see that something else is added like this also fits right in, it’s exciting – it really is. Tobey, I’m so thrilled that you were able to do this for us. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about that project?

Thanks, Carla. And I think you’re right about how the line got dropped, and there are a few others that are similar. I’ll get to those, but maybe first I’ll just give a little background. Monica talked about how it all got started. It’s interesting because on bring4th just today, or yesterday, a chat room, a functioning chat room, has been added. This project actually started in a previous iteration of bring4th in its chat room. It was 2003, and at that point, Carla and Jim had opened their house up to a number of mostly young seekers, and one of them was a man named Bruce. He participated in that previous bring4th forum. There was a guy poster, who is still active, named ZenMaster who is a friend of Bruce’s. The two of them were in a chat session the night I tuned in. And they were chatting about, “Wouldn’t it be nice to have a Wiki where questions that are raised again and again in the forum can be addressed and worked out so you don’t have to answer the same questions repeatedly?” And I just, out of left field, chimed in and said, “Hey Bruce, by the way, do you know I have this website, I’d like to add back the Book 5 material, but I want to put it in the right place. I don’t know if it came out of the beginning of the session or the middle or the end.” And Bruce said, “No, I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does. The only way to find out would be to listen to the tapes.” And I kind of gulped and said, “OK”. I really did want to do that. I really loved being able to find what I had remembered by looking it up at, and I wanted that material, but I wanted it in the right place.

And so, a few weeks later, a box of tapes arrived in the mail, and they were copies – I think they were actually copies of copies. I think the original tapes maybe at that point were still sealed. And so I got the second-generation tapes which were audible, but the first seventeen sessions were very faint. And I listened to them on a [cheap tape player]… I think it was a lot like the one Jim used in a picture of Jim transcribing. 2 I had a little portable tape player also.

And very quickly I kind of got hooked, because right in the first session there are some interesting differences. And there are a couple of these lines, like the one about the house, that were dropped. When you read them, there’s a line about dancing thoughts that I really like. Some of these I have added back to Some of them I still haven’t yet, and that’s part of the update I’m working on. So right in the very first answer, Ra said, “You are part of a thought. You are dancing in a ballroom in which there’s no material. You are dancing thoughts.” And so I’m reading along in the transcript, and I’m realizing, “Hey, we’re going off the road here! This is kind of cool!” And I think that was it. I was, you know, I was hooked at that point.

In that first session there were two other lines that have been dropped. Maybe one… I don’t know if this was intentional or not, but Ra said, “We, too, have our place. We are not those of the love or the light.” And of course, what they meant was they are those of the Law of One, of Unity, not fourth density – love – or fifth density – light. But when you read it, it sounds maybe a little alarming… they are not those of the love and the light. So I don’t know… but probably you guys…

The only thing we would have taken out, would be if it would have been sensationalistic or personal.

Ok. My theory actually is that Jim probably transcribed it right, and then, as I understand it, you guys sent Jim’s transcripts off to be typeset. So somebody would have read it and then entered it into a typesetting system. And, like you said, there are two lines that end with ‘vibrations,’. I’m thinking it might have just been an eye-skip that jumped from one line that ended with ‘vibrations’ to the next.


Well, that’s interesting, because when I first read it I thought, “Wow! Did they take that out because it sounded so radical?”


But, hey, that’s not any more radical than all the other stuff in the Law of One!

Yeah. So Bruce and ZenMaster had set up this Wiki, and I had found these changes, and wanted a place to upload them, and the actually is not super-easy to make changes to because each question and answer is a separate record in the database, and it was easier to just read along, make the changes, and then copy and paste the whole session to the Wiki. So that’s what I did. And the Wiki kind of, in the meantime, it started out where they were adding content and then, I think, you know, things happen and people find other focuses, so that part of it never really flourished. But I kept plugging along and uploading these changes. So currently, that is the place to read the re-listened version. But the goal all along has been to incorporate it back into, and I’m very close to being able to do that. …

Could you state that site again so they can make sure they got it?

The re-listened material is currently at 3


I think Bruce and ZenMaster registered at with one, the number one. And then it was actually for a while, and then there was really nothing happening on it. Carla was ready to just consolidate bring4th into its current form, and so I moved it to So I plugged along. It’s slow going. I found it slow going to listen and mark changes, because I found myself stopping to think about what Ra was saying, and also just trying to be clear that I was getting it right. There was a lot of back and forth. I probably only did – I don’t know – twenty sessions in a good year.

And eventually, in maybe 2006, a guy named Terry, who was a long-standing friend of L/L Research’s, got excited about it. He was a great help to me because he would basically nag me and say, “Hey, Tobey, done any sessions recently?”

And in 2007 Gary digitized the tapes – he copied them to CD and created mp3 versions, and Terry actually started listening to those. And so, for Session 75 through 106, he did a first cut, and then I started from his versions and made a next version. And so the protocol has gotten more rigorous as we went on. Terry introduced the convention which I’m now using of indicating blank spots, because there are some blank spots, mostly because when Jim taped the sessions he used three cassettes and staggered them so that nothing will be missed. So in any session, at around the 45-minute mark, you hear the ‘click’ of a tape running out and then being flipped and then started again. But they only saved one of each tape, so with the tape that’s saved, there’s a blank spot right around the 45-minute mark. And Terry indicated that, which I hadn’t been doing, and I thought that was a good idea, so I started doing it, too.

I want to just point out that this is one of the many L/L projects that bring people together from all over the world. Terry is in Taiwan and our Tobey is from Virginia. So when people want to serve and help seekers with L/L Research, you know, you can really dig down deep, find your roots, find what you want to do, and then, [go, go, go!] This has taken both of them years, and it’s such a blessing to L/L Research. Go ahead.

Terry and I now exchange Christmas Cards, which is fun.

Yeah, he’s a sweetie. He came and visited us.

Yeah. I think he might actually have made the first batch, [where] I got about seventeen tapes. And then the rest of them came in one big box, maybe six months later.

He made them?

I think it was actually Terry and his girlfriend that did all those.

Now his wife.

Now his wife. So I still was listening to tapes at this point. I was thinking that they were better, but finally I listened to the mp3s and realized, gosh these are clearer. So the last eight sessions starting with 99, I had listened to the digital versions, and could actually hear more. So once I finished, I still wasn’t 100% happy that I really had the definitive version. And Carla and Gary were excited and interested in the project, and interested in the idea of producing a book with these versions, and I said, “Gosh, I’m just not ready, you know. I’d like to listen to them again.”

But I realized fairly quickly that it was probably going to take me another six years, or however long that had taken. And Gary said, “Well let’s get some volunteers to start with your work – the wiki, the re-listened version – and then work from that.” And so he recruited three [volunteers]. It’s grueling work to listen, and two of them dropped out. But one guy, named Eric in San Francisco, faithfully listened. The idea was he would start at 106 and work backwards, and I would start at 1 and work up. So he made it from 106 all the way down to 31. And I made if from 1, I think, all the way up to maybe 6.

But what I started doing instead of listening myself, was just taking Eric’s transcripts, and then he carefully indicated the changes he had made. So I would go flip time stamps. I would go back and compare just that little section and see if I agreed with him, and mostly I did. And what Eric introduced was really getting, basically, every sound that Don made. We still didn’t do, “Um…” But times where he would start and ask the question one way and then change and ask it differently, like “Are you saying…” – “Do you mean…” - “What I’m trying to say is….” I had kind of been glossing over those, and Eric put them down, and so now we have, I think, [an] extremely accurate versions of sessions 31 through 106. Unfortunately, Eric has gotten busy, and doesn’t have time to do the last 30… or the first 30, as the case is.

And actually, there will be some changes in there. Just as I was preparing for this evening, I was listening to one of the early sessions in the digital version, and a question that I had marked as inaudible actually I could hear – very faintly, but, I could make it out. So we are hoping to find another volunteer who can maybe find the time and energy and effort to re-re-listen to those first 30 sessions.

Yes. Tobey, I was wondering if our listeners might like to hear a clip from these actual sessions so they can have an idea of what you’re talking about when you say how grueling it is to listen to these?

Yeah. That’s a great idea. And maybe it would be nice… I actually prepared just the part of that opening question and answer that you read that was different, and that might be a good example of Ra. It’s clear and you can hear how slowly Ra speaks and can actually hear the new material. So that is “95-House”.

All right.

[starts the recording]

Tape of Carla (channeling Ra): We suggest that you then request of this living entity that it now would be welcoming and absorbent for the vibrations of harmony, love, and the thanks, the giving which this group shall then, as the incarnational experience proceeds, offer to the domicile.


So that’s what it sounds like.

Wow. We really want to thank you, Tobey, for taking [on] this long [work]! I don’t think I can appreciate or imagine how difficult it must be to actually listen to that for hours and hours, and actually get the pronunciation, the punctuation and everything and end up with a finished product that we can actually read and follow in a flow. So wow, that’s amazing!

Yeah. You find yourself tuning out constantly. I do, or thinking about it and you gotta go back. But really, I had it easy because the one who did the hard work, of course, is Jim who’s here with us. Honestly, there were really very few changes, considering how long it is, how many hours of tapes there are …

And what pressure he was under to finish it. Don was always hovering over his shoulder going, “Is it done yet? Can I read it?”

Is that right?


I think Don actually had the hardest job by far, because he was sitting there, hearing these words for the first time. He couldn’t press rewind and say, “What did he say, really?” He had to formulate questions on the basis of what he had heard just then, and that just amazes me.

You’re right. And I’ve got a great example of that. Maybe can we play another clip from Session 73. And this wasn’t published before. The Ra [group] actually misspeaks and don’t realize that they misspoke, and Don catches them. [Here it is.]“.

Tape of Carla (Channeling Ra): Those who state that no working comes from it but only through it is infringing upon free will.

Tape of Don (Questioning Ra): You… you said that if the entity says that no working comes from it but only through it is also infringing. Is that correct?

Tape of Carla (Channeling Ra): I am Ra. This is incorrect. We said that in that event there is no infringement.

So that was fascinating, because that was actually published the way Ra meant to say it, but even when Don asked them they didn’t realize that they had said it wrong.

One thing I do notice listening to that is that you don’t really even have to know what they’re saying to get the feeling of an atmosphere. When you’re listening to the words, you’re listening to the energy that goes along with the words. It really puts you in a different kind of a place.

You’re right. It’s really interesting to me. When I use the tape player and I want to back up, I keep it on Play and then press Rewind and then you can hear the little “brrp” sound of the voices. And actually, when you do that backup thing, Ra’s voice is much more resonant, much louder than Don’s. Ra really project it, even though they spoke very softly often. There’s kind of a timbre there, or a fullness that I think that most of us don’t usually have in spoken communication – like a presence. I think that’s maybe what you’re alluding to.

Monica. Hmmm. That’s interesting that you picked that up even going backwards.

Yeah. I could always tell when Don stopped and Ra started or vice versa.

Tobey, could you talk a little bit about the differences in the sessions? I mean, why are you doing this? For the sake of those who already have the books, or maybe have read the books online at, what’s the purpose of this? What are we going to get? What kind of additional information can we find?

Yeah. It’s the question, “Why are you doing this?” that I have asked myself.


I’m sure there’s some tasty gems in there. I mean, we already found one and I’m sure there’s lots more.

There are. Maybe not lots, but enough that it feels like it was worth it. I’ll give you some examples in a second, but the overview I have, or where it comes in understanding is… that this is just a remarkable thing if we believe it is what it says it is, which I do – that you have a Sixth Density being, a mind-body-spirit complex, speaking through to us on Earth now through the veil. And it really just ought to be – it just feels like it needs to be – as accurate as it possibly can.

Plus, Ra was so careful to be precise, as precise as they could be, and so it’s kind of honoring that effort of theirs to be as precise as we can be also.

But to give you some examples – there were some new questions and answers, and I think maybe [Jim and Carla] thought that when they published Book 5, that they were publishing everything. But some of the new questions and answers are maybe a little marginal, like about cattle mutilations, or Maldek and Lemuria. There were a couple that were interesting. There’s one about pyramids, about a pyramid built of rods, why the energy is the same as the solid-sided pyramid, and a few others.

But the most interesting parts for me, I think, were the lines that were dropped, maybe because of the type-setting issue we were talking about earlier. There’s one that I was really glad to find which was in the section about the Tarot. Ra gave a general answer about birds – winged figures they call them – and it’s kind of like the house one, where you read it without the missing line and you almost think it makes sense, but you don’t quite maybe get it. But you think, “Maybe I’m still not just getting the Tarot.” So they said, “The winged visions or images in this system are to be noted not so much for their distinct kind as for the position of the wings. All birds are, indeed…” – and this is the new part – “…intended to suggest flight and messages and movement and, in some cases, protection. The folded wing in this image is…” and then it’s back to what was published, “…intended to suggest that this is the matrix figure. The Magician cannot act without reaching its winged spirit. Neither can the spirit fly lest it be released into conscious manifestation and fructified thereby.”

Monica, if you think we have time, I’ve actually prepared a clip of that, which is interesting both for that new material and because it illustrates the fact that, even though Ra typically spoke in a very monotonous voice, in the questions that they liked, they actually allowed some inflection to creep into their voice.

Yeah, we got time.

Ok. It’s “91-Wings”.

OK, here we go.

Tape of Carla (Channeling Ra): All birds are indeed intended to suggest flight, and messages, and movement, and in some cases, protection. The folded wing in this image is intended to suggest that just as the Matrix figure, the Magician, cannot act without reaching its winged spirit, so neither can the spirit fly lest it be released into conscious manifestation and fructified thereby.

It’s awfully quiet. Could everyone hear that? I don’t know if you can play them any louder.

I don’t think there’s a way to do that, but I could make out every word, and I could tell what you meant by Ra being more animated. There was definitely an uplifting, a lilting to the voice.

Yeah. Exactly. And you can get that [when you] read the printed transcripts from the “O Student” – they just were into it. I’m wondering maybe if I have some clips that aren’t so much about changes as they were.

One of the really interesting things for me was just that it gave me so much more insight into the process, and the sacrifice, and the effort that went into creating these sessions. I had a few clips from the early sessions, but they’re very faint, so I don’t know if it’s worth trying to play them or not.

Why don’t you give it a whirl.

Any of our listeners that are listening, if you want to give us some feedback, you can go to the chat room at Sign in to the chat room and give us some feedback on how well you can hear these, OK? That would be appreciated. OK, now which session was this, Tobey?

Well, let’s play the very first one. [In] the very first session, of course, they didn’t know Ra was coming, they didn’t have the protocol of walking the Circle of One, Carla going into trance, any of that. It was just a regular conscious channeling. And so it’s actually the first and the only time you actually hear Carla say the opening, “I am Ra,” because always after that they waited until Carla had left her body and Ra had started speaking, to begin taping. So, yeah, will you play “1-Beginning”?


Tape of Carla (Channeling): I am Ra. I have not spoken through this instrument before.

You can kind of hear that that’s actually Carla speaking. That’s not monotonous, it’s not trance, you’ve got some intonations, and then if you play “2-Opening”, this one, I think she is in trance, and actually Carla… So they had a time before each session, and they would say, you know, Ra Session-Whatever, and the date, and often it was Jim that said that, but this time it was Carla, so you hear Carla’s regular speaking voice, and then you hear her as Ra immediately afterward. So this is “2-Opening”.

Tape of Carla (Channeling Ra): Number Two, Ra tape number Two, One-Twenty-Eighty One.

Ra. I am Ra. I greet you in the love and the light of our infinite Creator.

Yeah, I have a question for you, Carla, and Jim. Being what Tobey just told us about the tapes, you couldn’t actually hear Ra saying ‘I am Ra’. But it’s kind of understood among the Law of One community that the sessions that didn’t include ‘I am Ra’, there was some question about some distortion coming in. So we always thought there was some big significance in that. Is that not true?

It is true. The significance of it, of course, is the tuning mechanism; the repetition of the name tunes the person to the vibration of that name.

So if the tape was only started after Ra had already said ‘I am Ra’, then how does the person transcribing it know whether that was said or not, I guess [that] is my question.

Well, Micky was sitting right there listening.



So, Jim, basically you did the transcription right afterwards?

Immediately afterwards, yeah.

With Don pecking at his heels like a mad rooster. Is it done yet? Is it done? Is it done?

Something that you guys said this summer, that I hadn’t realized that I thought was fascinating, was that, Carla, Don wouldn’t let you read the session until after the twenty-third [session]or something like that…

Yeah, something like that. It was just pitiful, Tobey, they’d come in and give me this look and say, “Does your mind-body-spirit complex have a distortion towards fullness slash hunger?”


And you didn’t know what they were talking about!

I was trying to follow with every bone in my body. OK. Uhhh… I’m hungry. I think I got that I’m supposed to tell you that I’m hungry. OK – let’s go eat.


I was so blind. And finally, I got Don to ask the question, Can Carla read this stuff? Because he’s a scientist! He didn’t want to pollute the material. In fact, his whole thing is very satisfying to the scientist in all of us, The Archivist, The Librarian, whatever, who like to know that this is the real thing. You know, there is the original tape, it’s been listened to, this is what it said. I think there’s a great comfort in that which we didn’t really have until the Re-listening Project.

Tobey, I have a question for you. You had outlined the website, the beta website that’s not actually up yet that you’re still working on which will be released soon, I understand. Do you have a list of some of the restored lines? And one of them, for example, Session 12, Session 7.12, a restored line, ‘Some of these landings are of your people’. But that line is actually already in, so have you already updated some of this stuff in

I did. Some of the ones I was really excited about I just went ahead and did.

Ah! OK. All right. Well, we have about ten minutes left. Were there a few other sessions you’d like to share with us, Tobey?

Yeah, I’d love to, but if there’s other things to do…

No, this is the time. And one thing that I’d like to hear about is the progress you’ve made towards planning actual publication.

Yes. My thought is that the nice thing about the edited, originally published books is that they read nicely, and I’m questioning whether all the false starts add to that. And so my current idea is actually to have three versions. I wanted to mention that on this beta site I’ve created an original version, which is the originally published Book One, Two, Three, Four, with Book Five spliced back in, and then a re-listened version which is the actual transcript, including indicating the blank parts that we couldn’t verify. And then I’m aiming toward a kind of compromise or middle version, mostly re-listened, but maybe just smoothing out a few of the rough edges in Don’s questions.

All of Ra’s answers would be the same, except there are actually a couple of places where Ra’s answers were edited, and, I think, correctly. We played that example of Don catching Ra in a misstatement. There are a couple of other possible misstatements that he didn’t catch. For example, Ra said, “Speaking of First Density, you may see the Air…” It was published as “You may see the Air and Fire of that which is Chaos as literally illuminating and forming the formless.” Well, that makes sense… Air and Fire illuminating…. What Ra actually said was, “You may see the Air and Water of that which is Chaos as literally illuminating and forming the formless.” There are three cases like that. I’ve indicated what they said and then kind of put in brackets what I think they might have meant.

So, to answer your question, Carla, I’ve got all the Ra’s answers ready to go. And then I’m splicing back in the re-listened version of Don’s questions, and just smoothing them out a little. I started working on that, and I realized it was taking too long, because I wanted to get these other changes uploaded. And so, that I think I’ll continue to do that, but I don’t think it may take years, I think it may take months.


And so, the main thing is, re-re-listening to the first thirty sessions. I think that really should be done because they were the first ones I did, probably quite not so well, on that little tape player, and I think the digital versions are better. So I think there’s still some, especially Don’s questions, to be improved.

OK. That sounds really beautiful. I think there are a lot of people that are itching to have that in their hands.


Definitely. I have a question for you, Carla. Do you think that this kind of illustrates the point about not making this into a doctrine of any sort? I know you’ve stated on the air before that you really don’t want The Law of One made into a religion, and yet I see people on the discussion forums battling quotes the way they do in Bible [studies], throwing at each other. And then they really get down to where one word can make a huge difference in an interpretation. And they use that one word to back up a particular belief. And in light of the fact that there may have been a few words that have been missed even by Ra, there could have been a distortion here and there. Do you have any comments on the idea of taking this so literally, as a doctrine?

Well, I’m very outspoken on that. I’ve been outspoken both about the material and about us personally. The one who could have been the greatest cult figure, of course, was Don, who died early. So it’s difficult for people to get their hands on him. But Jim and I are still alive and there arises an attempt now and again to put us up on some kind of pedestal. And we don’t belong on any kind of pedestal. We’re just like anybody else, living our lives, and doing the best we can to live up to our belief system.

It just so happened that in this lifetime, all the things that Jim and I did apart seemed inevitably to bring us together to serve in this way. But I would be the last person to encourage an overzealous discussion of The Law of One. I think the concept of free will is so important here. You have to remember that your free will stops at the end of your nose. You don’t have the free will to expatiate upon whatever it is that you feel that is important for everybody else to know. It’s very possible that nobody else wants to know it.

To me, it’s always been a matter of, well, if somebody asks you about it, then feel free, suit yourself, just talk all you want, share all you want, you know, be real excited about it, and that’s fine. But unless someone actually is asking you about it, it’s NOT fine just to carry on about how you really ought to read about this. Yes, you can drop a little kind of a seed of thought now and then – just a sentence here or a sentence there – and if there’s fertile ground there, they’ll ask about that seed and you’ll be able to go forward.

But mostly, it’s a very good idea just to relate to people on the basis of, “How can I support you? How can I help you, how can I be of service to you today?”, and not on the basis of what you think might help them, because you’re not in their body, you’re not walking in their shoes. So definitely, I’m against mindless obedience or a mindless adherence to every word there, saying that every word in this book is absolutely true and all that stuff. It’s such good material, though, the tendency is to do that and sort of jump over the top, over the edge and say, “No, no. This is totally different. And Ra would never screw up. So I’m just going to take that everything in here is absolutely true.” Well, I wouldn’t. I submit absolutely everything to my own judgment system. If something doesn’t make sense to me, then it doesn’t make sense.

It doesn’t mean that I don’t find it interesting. It means that I don’t necessarily believe it, because I’m told that… and I would hope the people would take The Law of One that way, and work with it to increase their spiritual maturity. It’s a great tool, it’s a great resource, and I encourage people to use it if it works for them, and to put it down and to move on to something else if it’s not working.

I’m very laid-back about it, and I see, time after time after time, it’s helped this person, it’s helped that person, and up to the point now where probably thousands of people have written in and thanked that we have made this material available. But that doesn’t mean that the next person that comes at it is going to be a Ra person, it’s just as simple as that. So you really have to wait for the opportunity.

I do think that what Tobey has done is remarkable – it makes things so much simpler. You never have to find your place now. You don’t have to depend on page numbers, because he’s got every question in the entire work numbered uniquely, so all you have to do is know that and you can find it in a manner of seconds. I think that’s extremely helpful. But that doesn’t mean that you’re supposed to treat it as if it were famous quotes from the Bible that will save you, and Satan is on your tail. I definitely am the last person to encourage that kind of thinking.

I just encourage people to think. I encourage people to ask, “What are your thoughts today?” Start from the very beginning and go from there, and build up your own intelligence. Make your own decisions. You don’t need another soul to tell you what you need to do for your own spiritual health. Just do what you think is right, and be fearless about it.

OK. We are just about out of time. We have just a couple of minutes left. Tobey, do you have any quick thoughts to conclude with here?

Well, I alluded to it earlier, but I think when I look at the big picture, I think that it has been worth it. And I think really that the original goal was a good one. I think reading the sessions with the Book Five material back, restored to its rightful place, deepens and enriches the sessions, because I think the Book Five material, in a lot of ways, is the heart of the Ra material. It’s about Carla, Jim and Don’s personal journey, and Ra’s. And it makes it all come together nicely.

Any idea when this might be available? I know you’re working so hard on this, Tobey. I’m sure you have a life, too, but any idea when we might have some news on this?

Soon, I think. The last piece I think I want to do before I publish it is make it so that people can search the different versions – the re-listened version and original version. It just gives them a choice when they search. You can already browse either one, and I want to make it search well and [then it will be] ready to roll out.

OK. All right. We are actually out of time. Thank you so much, Tobey. Thank you for joining our show. Thank you Carla. Thank you Jim – the original Scribe, for making this all possible.

You have been listening to L/L Research’s In The Now with Carla L. Rueckert. I’m your host, Monica Leal. We have Tobey Wheelock and Jim McCarty on our show tonight. Please visit our websites, and We’ll be here next Friday [evening], as always, at eight o’clock Eastern Time. Thank you so much for joining us! We will see you then.

  1. Carla’s note: Actually, Jim says we never did do a session here. The only session that was not done in the Watterson Trail house was done in Cumming, Georgia, at our rented Lake House, as I called it. It was on Lake Lanier. 

  2. That photo is used on the front cover of the 25-year collection of the L/L newsletter, Light/Lines

  3. The Wiki doesn’t exist anymore – all of its material was moved to the main website