Welcome to the Ascended Minds network, the station at the intersection of science, spirituality, and the universe.

Good morning, my sweet friends. We are coming to you live, doing the introduction, recording today on Christmas Day, so I hope everybody is having a wonderful holiday. I hope you’re enjoying your family and your friends, and really understanding what this time of the year helps me remember, is that it’s all about connection and love and being with each other, and sharing our lives and our journeys through this beautiful existence with each other, and gathering around and commemorating the commiserating with each other, and just sharing our hearts and souls. I hope you all have had a wonderful long weekend, and I hope the holidays are treating you very well. I know it’s not always easy for everybody, and sometimes this can be a very challenging time of year, so just be sweet, be kind, remember that not everybody has what we have, and not everybody is enjoying this time of year the way that we might be. So just share some empathy, share some love, reach out to somebody, and just say, “I love you.” Now, hopefully, that’s something we can do every day, but especially during this time of year.

Today, we have a guest that I am super excited about. These are people on a topic I’ve been wanting to discuss since I’ve gotten into this way of life. We talk today with the people behind L/L Research. These are the people that are associated with The Law of One and were a part of The Law of One channelings, and have been a part of spreading that message ever since the channelings happened in the 80’s, so I’m super excited about this. It’s something I’ve been looking forward to for a long time. Anybody who’s listened to past episodes of the show will know that I reference this material very frequently. Let me give you guys just a little bit of a context to this show.

This material is very, very in depth. It spans the course of five books, and there’s a lot to it, so it’s very hard to kind of introduce it in 90 minutes, or even a few hours would be difficult, so it’s really, really tough to lay out and compress and just do a very basic 101, but we did the best we could and hopefully this just gets your appetite a little wet, or peaks your interest a little bit. There’s so much more to this material than what you’ll hear in this show, and I cannot encourage you all enough to check out the material for yourselves and read it, and see if it resonates with you guys. I know this was one of the things that really resonated, and it really hit me in my soul, as you guys will hear, and hopefully that will come through, and there’s really no substitute than digging into it and reading it yourself.

So, it may not strike you the same way that it did me, I know everybody is different, and every path has to be unique and your own path, and I completely understand and respect that, but for me, personally, this was a pivotal moment when I found The Law of One series and when I read the material. So, I can’t encourage you guys enough to check it out, support these guys as best you’re able. I know we offer some support to them whenever we’re able, both myself personally and the show, we would love to support them any way that we can, so please share some love with them. I hope you guys enjoy this—it was a highlight for me, I just absolutely adore it, and I hope that you guys do too.

So, we will cut an end to this intro here, and get you guys right into the show. Real quick, of course, at the very end of everything, there will be our ramble, this ramble was a little bit tough for me to record. I did it a couple of weeks ago during a period where there was a lot of attention on a particular story that hit kind of close to home, so it’s a little old, about two weeks old, or so, but anyway, that’ll be at the end. And, of course, we want to thank Cameron Gray, the artist for all of the beautiful images that adorn the website. He has made our website really look fantastic, so thank you so very much. We also want to say thank you and much love to the Desert Dwellers, they provide all of our transition tracks, all of our featured music, we love those guys. You guys are the best. Support them any time they’re in town, go to see them, you will not regret it. And, of course, we have to say thank you to Lish for our intro music. All right, everybody, thank you all. Blessed be. Enjoy the chat.

Please take your seat and fasten your seat belt, and also make sure your seat back and folding trays are in their full upright position. Please keep your hands and arms inside the vehicle and remain seated at all times. We are now cruising at the level of two to the power of 25,000 to one against and falling, and we will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway.

All right, everybody, welcome to another addition of the show. I’m super excited about today’s guests. We have a crew of people here joining us from the L/L Research group, and these guys are the ones that have been involved in the thing that you all are probably sick of hearing me mention, it’s The Law of One, the Ra channeling. So, welcome, guys, thank you so much for your time, and I’m so glad that you guys can join us today.

Thanks for having us on.

So, we’re talking to three folks here, so let’s, if you guys don’t mind, introduce yourself, and tell us how you’re connected, and how you came to join the crew at L/L Research.

I know who that should start with.

Well, my name’s Jim McCarty, and I met Don and Carla back in 1979, and after attending their Sunday night channelings for about a year, they invited me to join them. So, I did that in December, of 1980, and three weeks later, on January 15, 1981, the Ra contact began. So, for the next 106 sessions, which took about three years, and three months, we were involved in what we considered our life’s work. Gary, how about you?

Wow, that was the short version. Me—I discovered this work online in January, 2000, as spiritual seeking had been underway for a couple of years at that point, and upon that discovery, my eyes were just waterfalls. I felt that I had found my philosophical home, and that set me on a course that I continue to walk today. This material serves as the foundation and framework of my seeking, and though I enjoy many sources, this tends to be the structure of my worldview and my view of self. So, fast forward, I met Jim and Carla in 2002 and in 2003 I attended one of their workshops. They invited me and a few other people that were there at the time to start intentional community with them, and I moved to Louisville, Kentucky, and joined them. A couple years later Carla invited me to be her assistant. She was a bit swamped in the office and couldn’t keep up with the work and wanted to do creative work. Eventually, I became director of L/L Research where I sit today, and I get to work alongside Austin Bridges and Jim McCarty.

My discovery of The Law of One was a series of coincidences going back to my childhood. But I think I discovered it around 2008, and eventually got involved with the online forums, and was volunteering as a moderator. Gary had asked me to come on as a moderator, and developed a working relationship with him through that, and then in 2013, I believe it was, was invited to come and help him in the office, and have been here ever since. The Law of One, as soon as I read it, the resonance felt like it was a lifetime component for me. It was something that was really putting the pieces together, and I knew that it was a central piece of my life from that point forward.

Okay, so the listeners have kind of heard my journey a little bit, but you guys haven’t. I was raised very, very conservative Christian, dogmatic, ultra conservative, and only recently, within the last five or six years have I started to kind of expand and be interested in other ways, and other spiritualities, and other connections with source, and I stumbled onto The Law of One, and I’ve read channelings before, and I’ve read a lot of esoteric writings and teachings, but there was something about The Law of One that hit me in the soul, and I couldn’t deny it. I’ve read other channelings and blown it off, and thought, “This is a bunch of ego, and this is somebody making up a bunch of hooey.” But something about The Law of One struck me as sincere and true and just hit me at my core. I guess one of the first things I want to talk about, and it sounds like through some of your introductions, you felt a similar way. How is this different than some of the other channelings that you may have read or been involved with? It definitely felt completely different to me.

[Long pause—then laughter]

Well, I guess I could take that one, when it’s a long pause and I should jump in there, okay? Well, for me, I was familiar with a number of channelings beforehand, and I thought a number of them were quite good, and some didn’t resonate so much, but when Ra started speaking through Carla, there was a certain sort of precision in the description of whatever concept was being discussed that really seemed to unlock new vistas of understanding and imagining within my own being. So Don and I, right away, thought that this was something very special. Don and Carla had been involved in channeling for the previous 15 or so years before I met them, and the channeling they were involved in was conscious channeling, which can be quite beautiful as well, but with Carla in trance, and out of her body, Ra was able to speak precisely what they wanted to say. And they tended to use words similar to what you might say, mathematical equation, so that they could get to the point in a very short period of time, in a very coherent way. How about you, Gary. What do you think about it?

I would preface my own reply by stating that I loved this information dearly, and I do hold it in the highest possible esteem, but at no point in my own evaluation of the material do I assert that it is objectively better than other sources of information, and I know that all three of us would echo that too, not just from the voice of the organization, because on that level, we refrain from critiquing other sources, or on the flip side insisting that this source is better than other sources, but personally, I try not to do that, and so, the disclaimer basically is that this is my subjective opinion only. And yeah, like you said, it hit you in the soul, and I thought likewise. It was something on a bone level, a knowing that can’t be controverted, which isn’t to say I closed myself off to evidence to the contrary. I’m constantly testing this information, as it were, refining it, comparing it against other systems, and against the laboratory of daily life experience to see how it stands out. I never want to become dogmatic with it, and say, “This is the truth, this is the final truth, and it can never evolve or change, depending on the available evidence.” But I have discovered in now 17 years of working with this material that all evidence just serves to strengthen it for me. From the beginning that knowing has proven true to me. It can’t be argued—I’m open to it—but it can’t be argued to the contrary, that the personal subjective sense of, “This is right for me, at least.” And there are any number of metrics one can use to evaluate its worth and its merit, and the individual seeker, of course, must do that themselves. Neither myself nor anyone else can do that for them.

Just quickly, before turning it over to Austin, I would say among those metrics are internal consistency. It’s a philosophy that’s vast in scope, it goes to the beginning cosmological start of the universe, and offers an umbrella of philosophy that includes every possible act of free will in the universe, and despite that scope and its ability to focus on what’s happening right now, too, it agrees with itself internally. It’s hard to logically assail it.

And a couple of other quick metrics, I feel that it is one of the purest philosophies, or let me say, most positively-oriented philosophies, because the whole thing is founded on respect for free will—radically so, more so than I’ve seen anywhere else, and in addition to its profundity to me, the final criteria that I would conclude with, is it’s treatment of negativity or what in moral terms, or religious terms, is called evil. I’ve never seen a more sophisticated, elegant, and true attempt to talk about that and analyze that before. How about you Austin?

Real quick, like you mentioned, these different metrics, and I do think it is completely unique in a few different ways, but something that has always struck me is just this mysterious factor that it has to resonate with certain people, and I can’t, in my own eyes, find a consistency between the types of people that it might resonate with, or what they might have in common besides just this deep feeling that they get when they first read the material, and then the meaning it continues to have in their life since then. And it’s not anything to do with those individual metrics, there is just something deep going on when a certain person, type of person, group of people, read this material, and it sounds like it’s the same way for you.

Yeah, absolutely, without a doubt, for sure. So for those of the listeners that are not familiar with what The Law of One is—obviously I would love nothing more than to unpack this thing and go line by line. You know how they have the Torah teachings where they read the Torah every year, and they go line by line, and have discussion groups. I feel like that’s what I want to do with The Law of One writings, and obviously you guys have other things to do in life and I can’t subject you to that, but kind of unpack it for the listeners that don’t really know and aren’t familiar, haven’t read it yet, what is The Law of One?

Well, basically it simply says that all entities, all people, all things that we know of in our reality and beyond, are part of one being, and that’s the One infinite Creator. The Creator has apparently made all of this creation with every person and type of life form in it, for the purpose of getting to know itself through all of the free will choices that each portion makes on their journey back home to the Creator.

Yeah, I think that’s a pretty good summary. And so basically we are all part of one, the table in front of me is part of that source, the air that I’m breathing, you guys on this Skype call, the cables connecting the internet connection, basically all of creation is a manifestation of the source of one, is that about right?

I would say that that is a true statement, and there are a number of directions to move from that statement and there are a number of ways to expand it, and to condense it, it’s an extremely rich philosophy, but, yeah, everything is one, everything is ultimately infinite. There do seem to be differences in qualities, and differences in space, and differences in time, and greater than, and less than, and all sorts of ways to measure and compare and to separate and to say that two things are like each other, or two things are different from each other, but ultimately the core mystical truth of The Law of One, as is true with all mystical teaching on Earth, is that there is no two-ness, there is no second or other than, there is only an ever-one thing, one life, and that in The Law of One philosophy, Ra calls the One infinite Creator. They also use a more technical sounding term, they call it “intelligent infinity” too. So no matter what form you’re looking at, like you say, whether it’s the cable between the internet, or a person, or a star, or the future, or the past, it’s all a manifestation of that one thing in the illusory guises of different forms.

This isn’t the first time that humanity has heard this message that everything is one. Ra said that when they first made contact, that they were here to offer a different slant on information that is ever and always the same, and that information is the ultimate unity behind the universe.

Yeah, so that leads me down to—if I’m a listener, I’m thinking, “Ok, well, that sounds great, but who the heck is Ra”? Obviously for most people Ra is the Sun God from ancient Egypt, it’s some esoteric something that we don’t really have any kind of a connection to, so you guys were able to, in the 80’s, you made connection with what could be called, or most people would consider a god of Egypt. What, who, what’s Ra?

Well, throughout the created universe there are various levels of intelligence that have been through the experience that we’re going through now on Earth. And when these entities from higher densities are able to be graduated, or make the transition to the fourth density, which is what we’re trying to do now, they discover that the way that they can keep growing is to continue to be of service to others that are not quite as far along the path as they are.

Now, what Ra is in general, is what you might call a planetary consciousness. They were apparently able to experience their third density, which is what we’re in right now, on the planet that we call Venus, and there were approximately 6-1/2 million entities that were able to make the graduation into the fourth density, and they became a planetary consciousness, or a group consciousness, and they are called by us on Earth, “Ra.”

That would be the same thing that if all of us on Earth were aware of all of the thoughts, and incarnations, and experiences of every entity on Earth throughout all of their thousands of incarnations, that would be the equivalent of what Ra has—a group mind, or what they call “a social memory complex”, so they’re a group of entities that are attempting to continue their own evolution by helping us in our evolution, and they answer what they call “a “call” from the entities here on Earth.

Aand a call can go out in a lot of different ways, not just “we need help,” but having difficulty being harmonious, experiencing the thousands of years of wars we have, being confused, all of these on a group level, are a kind of call that is heard throughout the one infinite creation by all kinds of entities, and those that are perhaps closest in vibration, or closest in space and time, then answer the call, and Ra has answered that call over a period of a great many thousands of years, going back to the Egyptians, 11,000 years ago, where they tried to teach the Law of One in person, but, unfortunately the Egyptians tended to worship them as gods, rather than seeing them as brothers and sisters who had come to help the Egyptians learn the Law of One.

Okay, so let’s unpack that just a little bit, because again, a lot of the listeners aren’t familiar at all with kind of what we’re talking about. So, in essence, according to The Law of One, and the channelings, and Ra’s teachings, there are several levels of what they call “densities”, so you could almost imagine they’re levels of existence, for lack of any kind of a better term, and they go through—and somebody correct me if I’m wrong here—but basically 1 through 8, as far as we know, anyway. And so these densities are levels of sophistication for consciousness, maybe, and at each density level there’s a lesson to learn, there’s something that you need to, or the entity or the energy pattern, or whatever, needs to be able to understand and grasp to move up to the next density. Is that kind of a decent summary of it so far?

Austin, were you about to go?

Yeah, I was going to say, that sounds like a really great summary. The only thing I would add to what you said, is you said it goes one through eight, and according to Ra, the eighth density is essentially the first density of what they call the next octave, so they’re describing a sort of fractal view of this evolution of consciousness, to where there are cycles of seven densities, or eight densities, depending on how you look at it, but in that eighth density begins the next cycle, so it’s the first one of the next octave, and they again go through seven densities in that octave, so there are octaves before this one, there will be octaves after this one, and we are currently in an octave that goes from densities one through seven, then to eight, which is beginning the next octave.

Okay, perfect.

I would add it can be likened to, as Ra does, the notes on a musical scale in the Western musical scale whereby there are seven notes in an octave, and the eight note is the first of the next octave, and also can be likened to the seven colors of the rainbow, that when split prismatically from the unity of white light, form these seven distinct bands of color.

And to further go into this a little bit, at some point, through the evolution of consciousness, somewhere between the second and third density, at least as I understand it, you start to be given your—you start to come into your consciousness, and be able to have free will and embrace choice. So, when you mention service to self vs. service to others, that happens somewhere between second and third or so, and you start to make a choice on a path you want to go down that can lead you towards your next evolution. So explain that to me a little bit, and to the listeners. What does that look like and so, there’s no good or evil, there’s just a choice of service?

Yeah, that’s basically it. In the first density Ra says that there’s basically earth, wind, fire and water, and a very simple awareness, and the fire and wind teach earth and water how to be formed into rivers and lakes and continents and so forth, so when the light from the sun interacts with these beings, there is, what we call life that begins to be formed as a single cell, and as is said, the consciousness is very simple, then, but there is the possibility to transition into the second density of the lower forms of plants and animals that take this simple consciousness and begin to work on it in a fashion that makes it more self-oriented, so that they become individualized as entities, and this process of individualization then, creates a mind and a body complex, that towards the end of the second density is able to take on what we call the “spirit”, so that this process of individualizing consciousness becomes more intensified, and as they move into the third density then, they are as we, have a mind, a body, and a spirit. We are complete beings, and we have the opportunity here, in the third density, to make a choice. That’s the whole reason, apparently, for the third density, is to make this choice as to how we continue our evolution beyond the third density.

Ra said there were two basic paths. Now, the first path is the one that we call service to others, and the second path is the service to self, or what some people call “negative” or “evil”. It all depends upon how the light and the love of the Creator is used. The positive entities tend to want to be of service to others and to give more than they take, and to see themselves as being unified with others. They follow the path of what Ra calls “that which is,” which is unity. The negatively oriented entities, on the other hand, feel that it is more appropriate for them to attempt to take the power of others and to use it for themselves and to separate themselves from others, and to try to dominate and control them.

So, if a positive entity wishes to be graduated or make the transition into the fourth density, it needs to use at least 51% of its thoughts, and actions, and words, in service to others. Just 51% more than you do to yourself. And the negative entities in order to go forward need to be 95% successful in controlling others and in separating themselves from others and in dominating others. So, those are the two paths, and each one is a valid path up to a certain point. The negative path can’t take you all the way, but the positive path will take you all the way back to the One Creator.

And just to clarify—when you say positive and negative, it’s not in the term of judgment, per se, it’s almost like a negative electrical charge, positive electrical charge, it’s not that negative equals evil, am I correct in that?

Right. A lot of people do call them negative-oriented entities, but that’s just a distortion of what they actually are. And you are correct, when you say it’s much like the positive and negative poles on a magnet, because the positive path is radiant—it gives out to others, and the negative path is absorbent, —it absorbs from others. So, it’s just like the poles on a magnet, and as Ra said there is no way to judge either, the positive or negative entity, or the positive or negative poles of a magnet.

It’s like a mechanical term more than a judgment term. And I would add to that, in talking about good and evil—obviously these are mythological concepts that go back since the beginning of story-telling, and I think that it’s clear that those terms and the depiction in mythology is talking about these two choices, these fundamental choices and fundamental paths that we have to make in this density. But the terms have become very loaded with baggage of judgment, and on the positive path judgment is something we are attempting to let go of, we want to offer love and acceptance to all things, and so to judge something as evil or bad or wrong, is something for us to look at as beings on the positive path, but it isn’t necessarily—doesn’t have to be a term of judgment. It could just be pointing to that mythological root of the choice.

I’ll just speak briefly to one thing you mentioned. You, Ryan, were formulating the question, you had indicated that as the second-density entity is ready to graduate and evolve and move on to third density, then they gain free will. It’s my understanding per The Law of One philosophy that everything in creation is already possessed of that free will, including first-density entities, like Jim mentioned, fire, air, earth, and water, and second-density entities, it’s just that there are higher understandings and experiences and a wider range of use of free will as the entity evolves from level to level.

Yeah, that makes sense. So, one of the things I’ve kind of evolved into personally is an understanding and a love and appreciation for hermetic magic and shamanism, and alchemy, and I think one of the reasons that The Law of One has struck so true to my soul is that you can, not judge, but you can kind of compare all of those other styles of teaching and understandings to The Law of One, and it all rings true, kind of like you mentioned earlier, Gary.

So, it’s interesting that there’s a sense of unity and unification between all of these understandings, and one of those is the principle of duality, which, in third density we come into, between service to self and service to others, but at some point that duality branches off, and I don’t know if conflict is the right word, but there’s definitely a separation between the two, but then eventually they come back together, and it becomes unified again. Is that about right?

That’s right. The entire reason for the creation is to help the Creator to know itself, and the ability to polarize, both positively and negatively, give it a greater range of free will expressions by each entity that is partaking within this process. As each entity is going through its own evolutionary process, it’s making thousands, perhaps millions, of choices throughout its lifetime. Each of its choices is a means by which the Creator can know itself, so when you have a greater, shall we say, seeming separation, or illusory separation between positive and negative, you have a greater opportunity for the variety of experience, and the vividness, the intensity of experience.

So, all of these experiences, all of them are illusory because we are all one being, and we are all the Creator, but here, within this third density, we don’t have the full knowledge of that because we forget that, we come here for a reason, and that’s to make that choice, and in order to make that choice successfully, we can’t see the total reality of unity that exists throughout all of the Creation, so for a while here, we seem to be immersed in good and bad, and that’s for a reason. It helps us to make this polarization choice.

So one of the things I’ve always struggled with, or has always gnawed at my brain a little bit, is I can conceptualize that we’re all one, and at least to the limited ability that my primitive brain and primitive heart can do, I get that. I can be in a conversation with you guys and conceptualize the fact that I’m really talking to myself, and I love how Ra uses those duality terms where he says the “teach/learning” and the “learning/teaching complex,” I love how he uses that because I can conceptualize that I’m talking to each of you all, but I’m also talking to myself.

But one of the things that always felt odd to me is they talk about the Orion group, and I think it’s also known as the “greys” to some folks, but basically, even in fourth density there are, and again I don’t know if “competing” is the right word, but there are different factions of entities and some serve self and some serve others, and I have always found it weird that, how can I conceptualize that in my primitive little ape mind, and somebody who’s more evolved and on a higher density to me, still seems to struggle with that. Maybe I’m being arrogant in my understanding. I guess I don’t know.

That’s a complex question. Firstly, as limited as our vision and intelligence is, I would say that we’re not just bound by the ape mind, per se, though, of course, that forms the basic framework of the biological structure of our brain, and so forth. But as to the question, let’s move on to the higher density, and you’re wondering how, at that level—at a level that is significantly, dramatically more evolved with a much wider perspective than we have, at a level where those of the positive path cannot only see the unity of creation, but fully experience life as one—how can they still participate in a dichotomy, or a polarity, whereby there is, like you said, a faction or a negative group of beings.

I think it’s quite possible to see that all life is one, but simultaneously—and this is one of the great paradoxes of the one and the many itself—if everything is one, how are there many, how are there parts, how is there differences? Yet there is, illusory though they may be. So looping back to what I was saying, those in fourth density can fully experience and know the unity of all creation, the oneness that underlies everything, and is everything, but at the same time, still have to contend with the other actors on the stage, the other participants, the other forms or manifestations of the Creator, some of whom determine, in their own use of free will, that the best way to evolve forward is to close their hearts completely, and seek to control and manipulate others and abridge their free will.

So, those of the positive fourth density must still content with those of that path, and each path gives each other the opportunity to fully express their polarity, and to fully polarize. Ra indicates there’s actually enormous utility and value in the advent of this polarization in consciousness between service to others and service to self, because it acts like a battery, both polarizations move each other along, as it were, along the path.

To build off of what Gary was saying about the advent of these polarities—and we were talking earlier about how third density is this density of the choice between service to self and service to others. Apparently at one time, third density had different conditions, and it now has what Ra calls “the veil,” which, in the simplest terms, you could say is a veil over our perception of the unity of the universe. At one point in time, in a different solar system, many, many millennia ago, there were entities that did not have this veil, but they did not polarize—which polarizing seems to be the most fundamental way for the Creator to experience itself through our own lives. And so they weren’t polarizing, so the veil was introduced at a certain point, and that perception of the unity of the universe was cut off from us within third density, and so then third density entities gained the ability to make the choice of service to self, or through faith of that unity, service to others.

So, when you’re thinking about higher density beings not seeing that fundamental unity that you’re somewhat able to grasp now, they don’t have the veil, but they had to go through this experience in third density where they were cut off in order to then make that choice to go even further into separation, and they sort of built this momentum within third density that they made this choice and they were able to see the universe in a certain way that they fundamentally felt was a better way to relate to others. Ra talks about how it is a polarity that gives them a sense of meaning, just as the positive polarity gives us a sense of meaning, and so they just fundamentally thought it was a better way to relate to others—instead of serve them, to control them, and sort of enforce their will upon the universe. And they see that unity, but they see it as sort of a self-perpetuating unity—that’s a bad term to say—but they see it as a unity to control, rather than a unity of equality, I suppose.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But, throughout the densities, again, as I think Jim mentioned earlier, service to self will only take you so far. At some point, obviously the self dissolves, or doesn’t dissolve, but obviously unity recaptures things, and you realize there is no self because self is other, and all is one.

That’s right. There is this desire on the part of negatively oriented entities to, as Ra says, “put the universe in order.” I think they do see a unity in the universe, but they also see the need to put it in order so that those that are more powerful can rule for the good of those below, shall we say. In the fourth density, the basic quality is love and understanding, that’s where we’re moving now. In the fifth density, it’s wisdom, and in the sixth density, the ability to balance the love of the fourth density and the wisdom of the fifth density, is what occurs there. And, that creates a kind of a power that helps those in the sixth density to be more of service, and efficient in their service to others. However, the negatively oriented entity, when they enter the beginning of the sixth density, sees that this balancing is going to present a problem for them.

All entities have to be seen, at this point, as not only portions of the same Creator, but the same as the self, so that a negatively oriented entity would have to totally change its orientation, and not see others as that which they shall separate themselves from, but that which they shall join in unity with. This is easy for the positive path because that’s the positive path, “the path of that which is,” as Ra says. The negative entity has to immediately reorient its polarity from negative to positive in order to do this, so that’s what happens. They have the same kind of power in their polarization process as positive entities, so they don’t have to go back and start over, they just have to reorient, they have to switch polarities, they have to become positive, and at that point that’s what they do in order to continue their evolution through the sixth density, and back into unity with the One Creator.

And so would it be fair to say that at that point, whatever point through the sixth density that that reorientation happens, there is no positive/negative any more, it’s just it.

Right. After approximately the middle of the sixth density, then polarities are given up. They’ve done their job. They’ve helped get each polarity to this point in their evolution, so now they can go forward without polarity.

So which level is Ra, the social memory complex that we call Ra?

Gary, do you want to take that one?

They report that they are of the sixth density, at a stage of evolution where they are beyond polarity. And I will add a caveat to that that occurred to me earlier, and that’s that none of the three of us, and nearly any Law of One reader we come across, attributes any value to this material because it is this entity who calls itself Ra, whatever name they used, whatever they said about their position in the evolutionary timeline, the material is judged on its merits. If they said they were Ra, and of the eighth density, or if they made some grandiose claim and used some great name for themselves, but the information was just crap, then there wouldn’t be this resonance and this study of this material. But, anyway, that’s a side note. I don’t want to divert the conversation down that road. But, yeah, that’s where Ra is—sixth density.

So one of the things they mention in there is the Law of Confusion, and I’ve noticed that when you read through, Ra has a hesitancy to answer certain questions, or answers them in a way that he doesn’t really come out—I keep saying “he”— but that entity that is being channeled, doesn’t actually come out and say anything on certain topics. He tries to keep the Law of Confusion in place. What I kind of explain to the listeners—or have you guys explain to the listeners, what that’s all about. When you guys ask a certain question, we don’t get a direct, straight answer all of the time.

Well, Ra is composed, as I said, of 6.5 million entities, but since they share consciousness, they have the same knowledge—each individualized portion has the same knowledge as every other entity, so when we were talking to Ra, it was an individualized portion, but it was the same as talking to all 6.5 million entities.

So, the reason they didn’t want to give some information was because they saw how it would infringe upon our free will to do that. That would basically learn for us rather than giving us an opportunity to learn for ourselves. If they would learn for us, then the strength that comes from our learning for ourselves would be taken from us.

So they would give us information with which we were already somewhat familiar so it would enhance what we were doing, but it wouldn’t change our free will choice of what we were doing. They avoided doing anything like that because, again, that would not really be a service to us, it would make us dependent upon them to make those choices for us, and they wanted to have us gain from making those choices, the strength that comes from doing that.

And am I right—I may have this wrong, so please don’t hesitate to correct me—but am I right in remembering that they specifically say there might be things that they tell you that isn’t 100% accurate?

They had a problem during the Ra contact with Carla’s physical body which had arthritis, and even though she wasn’t in the body, it could still experience pain flares, and when it experienced enough of these flares of pain, it caused the channel, or the contact, to waiver momentarily, and in that moment there could be incorrect information given. So, they always told us to be on the alert for any information that didn’t sound right. Frequently, on a session where there was some pain flares, there would be incorrect information given, and then in the very next session, they would say, “We have discovered that we gave you incorrect information, this is the correct information”.

And we found some places where we thought that the information needed to be adjusted and they were grateful every time that we could find something that would help them be as precise and as clear as possible, because they wanted to have this contact transmit concepts that were as clearly stated as possible, so they could be used by us in our own evolution.

They did claim that they never intended to give incorrect information. It was just a mistake whenever it happened.

Okay. So that brings me to my next question. There were several times when you’re reading through the transcripts where at the end of the session, when you guys were wrapping up and closing the session, they would ask you guys to make adjustments to an object in the room, or you would turn it some number of degrees one way or some number of degrees the other way, and it wasn’t until towards the end of the writings, I think it may have been in Book V, where you guys actually discovered what that really meant. Could you walk us through that a little bit, because to me, that was fascinating.


Yeah, that was fascinating to us too. Book V is a collection of channelings that were personal in nature that we took out, thinking it would be a good idea to keep the emphasis off of our personalities, but then later on we included them, so a lot of the material there comes from earlier sessions. And, it was somewhere around session 18 that we discovered that these various items that were on the table at Carla’s head. It was a chalice of water, a candle, incense, and the Bible that was open to the Chapter of John, Verse 1. The reason those were all there was that Carla was a member of the Episcopal Church and those were the items she dressed the altar with every Sunday of her life when she was at the church—she was on the Altar Guild. So, those gave her comfort as she was leaving her body, and coming back into it. So Ra said there was a certain alignment there that was necessary to maintain in order to provide the most comfort to her as possible. However, every now and then they would say, at the end of the session, that the alignments were .2 degrees—the incense was .2 degrees off, or 1.1 degree. And we thought that there was no way that we could be that precise in our measurement of these items one to another. So we finally figured out they were talking about our line of questioning.

The whole Ra contact was a product of our free will, and they tried to observe our free will at all times, so they couldn’t just come out and say, “Your questions weren’t too good this time, guys, you’ve got to do better.” What they would do is say, “You alignments are off.” And we finally figured out they were talking about our line of questioning. And the way our alignments could be off was if we questioned in areas of transient material—material that didn’t have a lasting value. A lot of times Don was trying to put together the puzzle pieces of all his years of examining paranormal phenomena, the heads at Easter Island, Men in Black, the Nazca Lines, and all these phenomena from years past are interesting, but they don’t add to our spiritual evolution, they don’t help us grow, so if we asked too many questions of that nature, they would say, “Your alignments need some help,” and that was when they told us through the accoutrements that were on the table.

Yeah, that’s super interesting. I like how they used that tool to finally get you guys to understand, I think that’s neat. Which kind of brings me to my next question—and if this is too personal for anyone, don’t worry and just tell me to skip it, and let’s move along—but I’m super curious of two things: one, knowing Carla’s background in the very, very limited way that I do just through your writings, and basically, what you just said, it’s interesting that she got into this, or channeling, period, at all, and I’m curious if through her channelings and specifically, The Law of One and for all you guys involved as well, did it significantly changed the orient[tation] of the spiritual path?

For Carla, but for everyone. If you’re in an evangelical Christian upbringing, channeling is something that you shy away from anyway, or at least in my upbringing, so it’s interesting that there’s an ability to start with, but beyond that, once you start talking to Ra—just reading it blew my mind. So once you’re actually in that conversation, I can’t imagine that you walk away from it without a significant shift in your understanding and your spirituality.

Well, Carla was a mystical type of Christian. She concentrated on, as she said, the red print in the Bible, which was Jesus. She didn’t bother with the dogma, and fortunately, the Episcopal Church, or the Church of England, has always been very accepting of eccentrics, and have had a lot of mystics in their church throughout their history. The church was formed because Henry VIII didn’t want to have to—he wanted to be able to divorce his wife, and the Pope said he couldn’t do that, so he said he would form his own church. So, it’s always been a church of eccentrics, and being able to welcome a larger point of view within the church.

Carla didn’t have any problem at all in the church. She always showed whatever person was her priest or her bishop the information that she was channeling, and she asked them to look it over and to give her their opinion. And I must say that these people that she had in those positions—there were a number of them over the years of her experience in the church—always gave her a thumbs up. They said, “This sounds like very good material.” In fact, Bishop Marmion was her bishop when she first started channeling, and he said, “You’re dealing with people who don’t belong to an organized church. They are people who are trying to find their own way to God, and you are Jesus Christ to them.” So he says, “Do the very best you can to share the love of Jesus with them”.

And that was her life’s mission because at the age of two, she had an unusual experience. She had to wear glasses because of a birth defect to her eyes, and one day her mother was putting her down in crib for a nap, and Carla took off her glasses and put them in the Venetian blinds right next to the crib, and as she was going to sleep, she noticed that the sunlight outside would make a beam of light through the lens of the glasses, and at the age of two she was able to slide out of her body and leave her body for the first time at that age, and go to what she called “the magic garden.” She did this between the ages of two and five, and in that magic garden the animals would talk to her, the roses would twine around her arm, and there was Jesus in the middle of her magic garden. He would never say a word to her, he would simply look into her eyes. And she said, “When he looked into my eyes I could see what unconditional love was, and what it meant”.

So, at that point, she became a follower of Jesus, and she was the one that told her mom and dad about Jesus—they didn’t tell her about Jesus. So, she had an experience that went back to her very early years that was very mystical in nature, and that continued throughout her entire life. The Ra contact simply was an extended experience of that mystical nature of her religious experience.


I had asked her once what impact the information had on her own religious position, and her spirituality in general, and she seemed to indicate that it just enhanced it slightly, but she was otherwise more or less who she was before, as who she was after. And I had a difficult time with that because she was exactly who Jim described her as being, as one who experienced a personal connection with Christ from the age of an infant, and had devoted her life to that teacher and his teachings, but at the same time as she was learned about the perspective available from the Confederation that was obtained through channeling, beginning with her exposure to it in the early 60’s and then her own channeling in ’74, and then, of course, the Ra contact in ’81 through ’84.

She shared spirituality through that lens. She talked about polarity and the evolution of consciousness, and all the topics that we’re talking about now, and she fully embraced and understood that world, so I couldn’t fully understand why she would say it wasn’t a great catalyst for change for her, and my supposition—and Jim, if you have something to add or subtract, then by all means—my supposition was that she had such a very well-defined and established faith from such an early age that that core of faith and that connection—her own portal to the divine, which for her was Jesus Christ—was as it was, and she… what’s the words I’m looking for, she… yeah, Jim, do you have anything to…

Well, like you were saying, Gary, Christianity, and especially Jesus Christ, was the foundation of her life, and there was every kind of thing you could imagine added to it, including the Ra contact. The Ra contact for her simply amplified what she felt was possible for humanity on Planet Earth, and that was to experience the ecstatic nature of love when you can open your heart to others, as was the pattern that Jesus showed, and is the lesson that we’re all attempting to learn, so for her, they matched–they were a set.

Yeah, okay. So, a couple of other things, and we’re coming up on time a little bit. I just wanted to fit a few more things in here before I’ve got to let you guys go. Again, like I said, I could talk to you all for hours and hours and hours, and still never run out of topic, so I’m going to try to compress as much as I can. The other thing I want to make sure to understand, or explain, or to make sure I understand, is fractally speaking, the same way the densities work on one through seven or eight, depending on how you look at it, to the next octave, the same sort of concept is true with the consciousnesses of the universe. So our planet has its own consciousness as Earth, but then the solar system has one, and I guess, Ra calls him the Logos, and then the Sun as one, the universe has one. So basically, Ra, from my understanding, might be originated on Venus and be of the Logos of Venus, but is all part of the same unity as you and I, because it’s in the solar Logos, that’s together, but there are other of those. Do I kind of have a good understanding of that?

Austin, we haven’t heard from you lately—how about you?

Yeah, I think you’re on the right track. You’re talking about the hierarchy of what Ra would call the Logoi, as plural for Logos, and like you’re saying, it’s starting at this fundamental core Creator Logos, and then starts to go down from there, where the love and light of the Creator is then refined, and offers experience in a sort of refined manner as you step down the ladder to the galactic Logos, and then to the solar Logos, and the planetary Logos, like you’re talking about. So you mentioned Ra being within the same solar system, one of the things the solar system Logos, the sub-Logos that is our Sun, offers to us as beings within its experience, is what Ra called the “archetypical mind” or “archetypal mind”, and that is sort of this framework through which consciousness interacts with the universe around it. So it’s the means with which we experience the universe, and so Ra, evolving on Venus, even though it was billions of years ago, shared the same archetypal mind that we share on Earth.

But, if you go to a different solar system, then they would have a slightly different archetypal mind, where there would be some slight difference to how they experience, how they process experiences, how experiences offer them catalyst for growth. It’s sort of mind-boggling to try to think about how, exactly, experience can be different in that fundamental way, but that is sort of what we would share with Ra, and there are likely not differences to the archetypal mind, but differences to our experience based on what planet we are experiencing on.

Ra talks about other hierarchies of mind, like the racial mind, the planetary mind, things like that. So, it can get kind of convoluted and complicated, but what you’re essentially talking about is that hierarchy of Logoi

And, again, my memory is a little a bit fuzzy, because there’s a lot of data there and I’ve read it only about 2.3 times, but when we are harvested, or when we evolve—whatever term you want to use—when we move from third to fourth, isn’t there some sort of an understanding that we may even move planets? I guess what I’m asking is, are the densities somehow related or tied to the different Logo or Logoi of the actual planetary body as we understand it?

At the time of harvest, which Ra says of third density—Ra says that third density is 75,000 years long, and there are three opportunities for harvest, one at the close of every 25,000 year cycle, and according to Ra, Earth is reaching the conclusion of its master 75,000 cycle, so everybody on the planet moves through this period that they call “harvest”, or synonymously, “graduation.”

Regarding location of where one moves to, depending on the—let me step back and say that the planet itself is a third-density active planet, and the planet evolves along with its population. Prior to the beginning of third density, this was a second-density Earth, and prior to that, just a first-density Earth, so Earth itself is reaching the end of third density, and is ready to be born as a fourth-density planet. Now, because there are more entities, there are more people on this planet who have successfully learned the lessons of love on the positive path, this Earth will consequently, become a positive fourth-density planet, and it will be home to a positive fourth-density population, according to Ra.

So, that leaves two other groups that need a home at the end of this graduation. One group are those smaller number of people who have successfully learned the lessons of service to self. At the point of harvest, that group will find a negatively oriented fourth-density planet, so far as I understand, their cosmic geography, that planet will be outside of this solar system, somewhere else.

Now, the vast majority of people on planet Earth have, according to Ra, not made the choice. They exist in what Ra called “the sinkhole of indifference”—they haven’t chosen service to self or service to others, and so much of our disharmony and difficulty on this planet can be traced back to that lack of choice, and you can see it everywhere. The desire for distraction, and sleep, and comfort, and anonymity, Ra said, too—that group which has not polarized will find a new home, a new third-density planet, whereby they can continue their efforts over the course of many lifetimes to eventually successfully make this choice of polarity. Ra said that process can go on indefinitely. In fact, this planet consists of many people who have not made the choice previously on other planets and have kind of, we might use the term, be recycled here on Earth so they could get yet another opportunity to learn.

Yeah, I think that clears it up a lot, so thank you. That definitely clears things up a little bit for me, and it’s wild to think you could—and I think Ra even mentioned this somewhere, and somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but they’ve peeked at Logoi from other systems and it’s mind-blowing to them, and they’re so much more advanced than we are, so it’s kind of fun to think about what some things may look like in a whole different system.

They said it staggers the imagination. 1

Yeah, and I can imagine that their imagination is a little bit more vivid than our own.

So, the last thing I want to make sure we get to, and I know members of my audience would definitely appreciate this question for sure. These days you hear a lot about, especially in some shamanic traditions, and some of the resurgence of the entheogen and psychedelic substance cultures, there’s definitely, you hear, a lot about how certain substances and experiences can help connect with the divine. And, I know that got touched on a little bit with the channelings, due to an experience that Carla had that we don’t necessarily need to specify, but I’d like to get into that a little bit, and the understanding of The Law of One, and specifically what Ra talked about in regard to those substances and how they actually affect consciousness.

I think people, in general, are trying to expand their consciousness and to move along the evolutionary path in mind, body and spirit, in whatever way they feel is most helpful to them, and a lot of people throughout the years, starting way back, I guess, in my hippy days, there were a lot of drugs that were used to do this, and they’re still some around today that are being used for the very same reason. Various cultures have been able to successfully incorporate the use of these substances and to help their adherence to experience and expanded state of consciousness as a result, so I think it is a potentially valid path, and has been used for thousands of years in various cultures.

Ra’s basic description of the experience that Carla had was that this experience was something that could be helpful under certain circumstances, but overall, what happens when you use a psychedelic drug is that you’re kind of like the hitchhiker on the highway trying to get a ride to your destination, rather than being the driver of the car who’s going to take himself or herself there by their own abilities. So, you see the same scenery, Ra says, but you’re kind of dependent upon the vagaries of the road, and how the trip goes, and sometimes the trips don’t go all that well, and you have to kind of recover on occasion. So, realizing the potential benefit of such experiences, the overall suggestion, I think, from Ra, was that it’s much more reliable to do it with your own juices, shall we say, through meditation, through contemplation, through prayer, through being of service to others, and so forth.

I think there’s nothing that can’t be achieved, as Jim was indicating, by one’s own spiritual discipline. Certain chemical compounds, however, do offer little seeming shortcuts, and they empirically have enormous value—one could get a peak experience, one could undergo a transformation that endures throughout their life, they could see themselves for the first time, or access subconscious material that needs healing, that comes awake to their conscious mind. One thinks of ayahuasca and psilocybin used in careful and controlled settings for that purpose. But to build on what Jim was saying about the hitchhiker, the danger is that one can open themselves up to more light than they can adequately handle, more light than they organically grew into, so that, once the chemical substance wears off, that could pose some difficulties for the structure of one’s energy system and mind in certain ways. But, so long as it’s used carefully, and not frequently, I personally see it as having great value, though I will conclude by saying that these channeled sources, who call themselves the Confederation, suggest that while it is everybody’s [own] path, that more natural evolution in the end tends to be the stronger and the better.

There’s a heavy focus in The Law of One on the concept of discipline of the personality, and that essentially can be interpreted as meaning the discipline of the self, and the ability to make the choice yourself of spiritual evolution, and to do the work of spiritual evolution. And like both Jim and Gary are saying, the choice to use substances is very personal, and has evidence of being beneficial in spiritual evolution across many cultures and in many people’s personal lives, but I think one of the dangers of relying on substances is that you then forego the discipline that would be necessary to fully integrate the experiences, and to make that choice to arrive at those experiences of your own accord, of your own abilities, your innate human abilities, the ability of your will to arrive there on your own without the reliance on something else. So, it’s not this sort of blanket, “No, they’re bad,” but there is something to heavily consider about their role in the spiritual journey.

I think that’s really well said, and that kind of echoes my own thoughts and feelings—let me step back and phrase that slightly differently—I completely understand and know that one can find God through mushrooms, but again, you don’t want to, any time you seek God, have to turn to the mushroom to have that prayer. I think you said it very well—you need to have that discipline that you know how to find God, or the source, or whatever you call it, and be able to commune and pray on your own, without relying on having to consume something in order to have that communion, so I think that’s a very good point.

So, there are a lot of channelings out there, there are a lot of mystical experiences, there are a lot of peeks into divinity. How do you check, or how do you verify or validate truth in each of those things?

You have to use your own personal discrimination. Ra mentioned many times that in this particular third-density experience, we really don’t understand anything. We make a very small beginning at grasping the nature of reality, and the way we do that is by our freewill choices, so each person has a certain plan that he or she has put into motion before the incarnation. And if you listen to that intuitional voice, that still, small voice inside of you—that will take you where you need to go. We don’t all get to the same place by the same path. We do get to the same place—unity with the Creator—but we all have a different way of getting there—either greatly different or somewhat slightly different. So you just have to use your own discrimination and follow that little voice inside of you that will not lead you astray.

You mentioned earlier the concept of the Law of Confusion and the respect to free will that these entities have to Earth, and I think that is important to remember in trying to evaluate what is objective truth within any sort of channeling. If there was a way to evaluate objective truth within channeling, they wouldn’t be offering it, because they don’t want to come across as the absolute truth authority—“you must follow this and this is absolutely true”—they are offering help and guidance, but it is something that they want us to decide to choose to follow ourselves, rather than something we are following because we can objectively confirm the validity of it.

Another word for the listening to the intuition, as Jim was describing (and is a very popular word nowadays), is “resonance.” One seems to… just like we all described at the beginning regarding how we reacted to the material, those are manifestations of that resonance, like a gong is hit inside, and you know it resonates in sympathy with you, and you have that level of knowing. Which is not to say one ought to abandon discernment or skepticism or questioning, because those are vital parts, but one should also be tuned into and sensitive to their own inner resonance, because we seem to have this sort of guiding radar inside that can lead us to what we need. At a certain phase of our life it may be a particular channeled series, and then when that phase is complete we may move on to something else, or we may stay with something for our lifetime, and what works for one person, doesn’t work for another.

Yeah, amen to that, and that’s one of the reasons why The Law of One resonated so deeply with me, and that’s my guiding principles. I try to tune into my heart and to my intuition, and that still, small voice, and Christianity talks about that as the Holy Spirit, and every tradition has a phrase for that, and when I did that through the channelings of The Law of One and Ra, it rang very, very true.

So, where can people learn more?

Well, our website is www.llresearch.org and all of our information that we’ve gathered from 1961 to the present, including The Law of One, the Ra contact, is available for free in the form of downloads. If you’d like to have books, we have those too, those have a price to them.

I wanted to add quickly—any listener to your show who is new to The Law of One and is being introduced to it by our words, one might get the impression that we seem to have a lot of answers. And we’re obviously well-versed in this material, but The Law of One consisted of 2,630 questions that took place over the course of three years, 106 sessions, and we’ve made a life of study of this—Jim especially, who’s been reading it from the very beginning, since 1981. So we’re very familiar with this, and can speak from that level of familiarity, but at the same time we have another thousand questions ourselves about the material, and its meaning and its application.

Ra themselves indicated that despite the information that they had to share, that their teachings themselves began and ended in mystery. That all of life itself happens against a backdrop of mystery, so despite our seeming familiarity with the material, please know that we don’t have a pat and ready answer for all of life’s questions. Life is a process of personal discovery, that no matter how awesome the material is that one is using, one still must always step into the unknown in their own process of self-revelation.

Well said.

Yeah, we explicitly don’t want to offer an authoritative interpretation of the material as an organization, so whenever the three of us talk about it, or any individual talks about it in answering questions about it to seekers in podcasts or anything like that, we want to make sure that people know we’re expressing our personal interpretations and opinions about it, and we want the individual seeker to use their own power of discernment when evaluating it.

As Carla used to say, “We’re all bozos on this bus”.


Well, I’m honored to be a bozo on the bus with you guys this afternoon, and I encourage everybody to check it out, and I will link everything in the show notes. It’s www.llresearch.org. I really appreciate you guys making available free the transcripts. I think that’s very powerful, and I want to just take a moment and personally say thank you guys for that. And I will also encourage everybody, if you can afford to, please buy the books, and toss these guys some support. Obviously love is great and we all run on that, but they’ve got to keep up the website and each of them have some pursuits that they need to help pursue, so if you can afford it, please donate to them. There is a “donate” button on their website, and they also have a link to another website that you can find through their www.llresearch.org, which is www.lawofone.info, which I personally find super helpful. I don’t know whose website this is, but it’s an organized section/cross-reference sort of searchable—if you have a particular topic you’re interested in, you can see what Ra has to say on that individual topic.

It was created and is maintained by our friend, Toby Wheelock, and I agree with you, it’s the best possible tool for study of this information.

Well, guys, thank you so much for joining me. I encourage everybody to read The Law of One, all the volumes. I personally want to read them over and over again, and any time you guys have a moment and are free and want to talk again, I would love that, so I just want to say, thank you, guys, for your time, I know you’re busy and I know you have a place to run here in about three minutes, and I just want to say thank you for joining us. Any final words?

Thanks for having us. We really appreciate it. We hope everybody has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, and we love you all.

We run our own bi-weekly podcast, and this is the first time anybody has invited us three to appear together on a show, so I’ve really, really, really dug this, and hearing especially Jim and Austin’s replies, and your questioning was spot on, so really positive, awesome experience, and we wish the best for your show, and thank you for having us on.

Awesome. I’m going to link to your podcast, as well, I think I have it, but just in case, tell me what your podcast is and I’ll make sure to link and tag it in there.

It’s called In the Now, and it’s just www.llresearch.org/podcast will take you to the main page.

Awesome. Subscribe to that, guys. Well, thank you all very much, I hope you have a blessed day, and will hopefully talk with you guys later.


Thank you, Ryan, have a great Christmas.

You too. All right, guys, I’m going to get this edited up, hopefully I release an episode today, so in two weeks we’ll release this one. I don’t do a ton of editing unless something happens, and ours is a pretty clean recording, so we’ll just add an intro and an outro, and we should be good to go, and I’ll let you guys know when it posts up live.

Thank you, this was great.

I loved it, I really did. You guys are welcome back any time, any conversation, I am up for anything. All right guys, have a great meditation and I’ll be meditating with you from here.

Thanks Ryan. Take care.

  1. Ra: There are entities of Ra which have served as far Wanderers to those of another Logos. The experience has been one which staggers the intellectual and intuitive capacities, for each Logos sets up an experiment enough at variance from all others that the subtleties of the archetypical mind of another Logos are most murky to the resonating mind, body, and spirit complexes of this Logos. – 90.17