At a 2013 L/L Research get-together, we had the great honor of a visit from Hal Price. Carla and Jim had of course met Hal in years past, but for the rest of us, this was our first and only meeting with Hal. He was probably in his 80s at this point. He was accompanied by his daughter Sherry.

As Carla explains below, Hal was the person responsible for giving Don Elkins the “Brown Notebook,” that which introduced Don to Confederation channeling and became, as Don put it, the glue that brought all of my research together.

Within months of meeting Hal in 1961, Don would visit the notebook’s source, a channeling group in Detroit. He would glean and then transplant their protocols back to Louisville, KY to initiate his own channeling experiment at the start of 1962.

This time period and all the subsequent history is explored in greater depth in L/L’s book Tilting at Windmills.

All right, everybody. We have a very special guest and an unplanned but much desired talk. If Carla or Jim would like to give an introduction?

In 1961, Hal came to work in Louisville from Ford in Detroit. He was a checker—a very important position, actually. Made sure everybody’s work was right before it got out into being manifested. And he came down here to help the truck plant out, I believe.

And he brought with him some fascinating information from the Detroit group that he had belonged to up there. It was called later Man Consciousness and Understanding of Detroit. 1 It had started with a UFO happening and firsthand ET communications. That had continued, and a group was formed around this communication. Walt Rogers, I believe, was the guy who had those experiences?

Anyway, Hal brought this information, and Don read some of it and was fascinated by the part where they said that if people got together and meditated that they would be able to create ET communications without seeing any UFOs. They would be able to manufacture them.

Don wanted to try that. He was a physicist and a mechanical engineer at the Speed Scientific School. But he was also a UFO researcher since the middle 50s. All his life, ever since he was about 20 years old, and flying all over talking about UFO experiencers or going to séances and all kinds of stuff. Just trying to find out what was happening, what was beyond the box.

And he was wanting to do this [experiment with channeling], so he asked 12 of his physics students if they would like to start a meditation group [in January, 1961]. And really didn’t say anything much more than that. But we all sort of got that it was, you know, very, very special. I wasn’t a physics student or anything, I was a girlfriend of the physics student. And it sounded good so me. I was looking for a silent meditation group at the time. Episcopalians are good at everything except silence,– they don’t do silence. So I was looking for that.

So there were 13 of us to start with, and I was the only girl. And it didn’t last because it got really popular. And as Hal’s daughters grew up, and a UFO flap happened, then we started getting a lot of people at the meetings. But that’s the way it started – it started in New Albany, [Indiana], I believe.

We would meet once a week and meditate. And for a while, nothing much happened. And then [around July, 1961, just half a year after the “meditation” group began], Walt Rogers came down from Detroit and channeled for the group. And he sort of got everybody sort of, “Oh, so that’s what’s been happening to me.” 2

So, then you know, gradually most of the people, they developed into channels. And they were channeling very much the same material that was in the Detroit group. That was very evidential for Don. He was very happy about it.

And I came into [serving as an instrument for channeling] in ‘74 when Don ran out of channels. You know, the engineering students naturally had graduated and gotten jobs – most of them out of town. And we ran out of people in town that could channel. And Don said, “You know, my experiment’s going to die if you don’t learn to channel.“ So I said, “Okay.”

And once again, around us grew a large group of people. And Hal was again part of that. This was in the early 70s. And with that large group of people, we tried to have a landed spiritual community called “Eftspan.” 3 And it lasted long enough for us to pay off the land. And about the time that we paid off the land, people began getting far less spiritual and not wanting to come to the meditations and wanting to stay out in the country and, unfortunately, do drugs and stuff. So it wasn’t working. So we sort of had to walk away from that. We did get paid off, and the land is still there, and there are people who are still trying to keep it going as a nature preserve.

But at any rate, that was Hal’s part in our development. And then after Hal and Jo got completely overwhelmed with family—started having grandchildren and really needing their space—Don and I agreed to hold the meetings [on our own] instead. And so they shifted over to Douglass Boulevard [in Louisville, KY].

And the rest is history. But 50 years ago, Don and Hal started a little meditation group experiment. And this is Hal Price and his daughter Sherry, who was in middle school at the time.

The day I got involved in this in Michigan, I didn’t…

First, you had an epiphany.

Hmm? Yeah, I had always been a kind of an atheist, and I didn’t accept orthodox religion. And I thought the only alternative was to not believe anything.

I think about a year before I moved to Michigan—which would’ve been 1953—I started reading some articles about experiments at Duke University where they had proved that there was such a thing as telepathic communication under laboratory conditions. And it started me thinking that maybe there’s more to what’s going on in this universe and in the world. So I was doing some interesting reading, and things opened my consciousness a little bit, I guess you would say.

Anyway, I got this job in Michigan in ‘54. And I was reading articles and books about UFOs and other things. There was going to be a lecture downtown Detroit. George Van Tassel [was the speaker]. I’m not sure if everyone’s familiar with him or not. You probably are. He was kind of a ringleader of all the UFO things. Anyway, I went to this lecture. And I was so impressed by his lecture and all the things that I had learned from it that I wanted to get a copy of the tape that was made of the lecture. And I don’t remember how I found out, but I got in contact with the man who made the tape. And he said that if I would come to this woman’s house on the other side of Detroit on a certain evening, that they could make a copy of the tape for me.

So I went there with a friend of mine who I worked with at Ford Motor Company and we went to this woman’s house whose name was Eunice [inaudible]. And they had a group that met at her house on a regular basis. They told us all about the group and I got a copy of the Van Tassel lecture.

Her son-in-law was Dick Miller, who was also a contactee. He had had a lot of communications… telepathic communications and had a whole series of tapes that were [inaudible] on various subjects. Eventually Miller went to California, and some of these recordings were played on the radio, which was unusual at that time.

Anyway, I get copies of his tapes and the Van Tassel lecture and started playing these tapes for various people, anybody who would listen, actually. And it ended up that there were 10 people—five couples—who wanted to start a group and see if we could get some communication with our own group. So…

Walt [Rogers] was one of those couples.

Yeah, he was one of those. Three of them I worked with at Ford, and Walt was a neighbor. So that was the five, and all of the wives all were involved too. So we went to…

We met with some of the people in the group in Eunice [inaudible] house for our first meeting. They had a message. The [person doing the] channeling was named Clyde Trepanier. And we got a message that night that was called “Message for a New Group” – which I’ve labeled it as very, very… one of the very interesting, best messages I’ve ever heard. I don’t know if you have copies of that or not.

You gave me copies of everything, I think, that you had at one point. And we’ve carefully archived them. They’re back in there somewhere. They are archived. 4

We decided that we would have regular meetings and see if somebody in our 10 people could be developed as a channel. And my supervisor at Ford (he’s in charge of about, oh, 50 people), the unit supervisor, which worked under him, and another checker—the four of us and Walt Rogers and the neighbor and their wives, we started having regular meetings at my boss’ house. He was the first one to start getting conditioning, which, you know, where you relax, you meditate, and involuntarily your mouth and tongue get moved around. Everything involving speech is exercised. And this went on for several months. He got the point where he could receive… His mouth may move to form a word, and he would get a mental impression of the word so that he could actually get the word and sentences. And he was… A couple things happened at that time that were really interesting. He had a private office at work. And he would leave his office at lunchtime and shut the door and get conditioning. And one day…

It sounds like [clicks tongue].

This was going on, and it suddenly stopped. And a couple seconds later, somebody opened the door and walks in. So he thought that was interesting – [whatever non-physical source] was doing this was aware that he was going to get a visitor and didn’t want him to be embarrassed.

Another time it was suggested to him that he could receive telepathic communications of a sort at that time. And he invited several people who worked for him to come and hear some of those tapes. And he was looking for one particular man who worked in that area… I forget his name – Jack somebody. And Jack wasn’t at his desk. And he asked the question: “Where is Jack?” And the answer was: “He’s in the men’s room.”

So he went to the nearby men’s room, and he wasn’t there. And he said, “He’s not there.” And they said, “He’s in the other men’s room.” This was an old Henry Ford trade school. It was a building about a half-a-mile long. He went all the way down to the other end and he was in there. But that was interesting.

Anyway, about that time he started getting messages at our group meetings. So this went on for… That would be about ’56 or ’57… And it went on until… Until I moved from Michigan to Kentucky in 1962, I think it was. Early…


February ’62. You said ’61.

Well, I figured that Don was seeing the material. Because I remember coming to you all in January of 1962. It must’ve been February. 5

Anyway, we got messages at our meetings every week. And several other people in the group got conditioning and channeled. Walt was one. I was one. I guess that was [inaudible]. But some of the others just got other information through automatic writing and other sources. And we got a lot of information… A lot of that I had tapes of. And some of it had been transcribed, like…

Mind you, were talking about reel-to-reel tapes. Big old tapes.

Way back.

You still have it. I remember seeing them.

I still have all of those reel-to-reel tapes, and I don’t really have a recorder to play them on that worked very well.

We have a recorder. We’ve archived that too.

You cannot buy a reel-to-reel recorder anymore. They’re just not available. Because I’ve tried. Anyway, we got a complete philosophy – everything that you’ve heard since, we got at that time. Nothing’s changed. It’s all been the same philosophy from the beginning. And that was pretty much the story. And then I got transferred to Louisville, and I brought all that information with me.

Where did you meet Don?

I think it was through…

Somebody knew that Don was interested in UFOs, and knew that Hal had come to town, and put the two of you together.

Some of us were temporarily, in evenings, in this instrument shop at the airport where they rebuilt aircraft instruments. And I think I met a girl there who was a friend of Don’s. I can’t remember her name. I think that’s how the connection was made.

And then he was quite interested. Got all my information, the tapes, some written material. And he went through it all in about two weeks, I think, or less than that. And he said that that was the kind of the glue that put it all together for him. He had been getting the same general information, but from totally different sources.

So did you start a group as soon as you got here? Or was that you and Don together?

It was…

The two of them.

It was in the same year. I’m not sure exactly about the dates. I think there was a period of time there where I was kind of lost in the material vibration, you might say. Got a pilot’s license and wrecked an airplane.

But you must have put out somehow… I guess just talking to that woman…

I’m not sure exactly when I got together with Don on this information - sometime in ‘62. It’s been so far back that the exact dates and things are kind of hazy. But everything else pretty much happened the way Carla said from that point on.

So you channeled up until…?

’74, I think.

And I heard you say something about your kids started to get grief? Something like that?

Pardon me. I can’t hear.

I heard you saying something like your kids started to get grief?

Yeah, we were having 50 and 60 and 70 people at our house out in La Grange every Sunday evening.

They thought we were devil worshipers.


All kinds of things.

This was getting to be a little out of hand and out of control because a lot of the people coming for this were looking for a kind of social affair, it wasn’t just really seeking philosophy.

Yeah, I remember poor Jo sitting there with a huge thing of ice cream trying to dip it out. And somebody saying, “You’re going to have to feed 100 people tonight, Jo.” And she said, “Well, it’s the loving (wife?)” I’ll never forget that. [inaudible] But it was too much.

I remember back in the 70s, I wrote a little two-page thing about the general philosophy. Because people always say, “Well, what do they say? What’s the philosophy?” This was all very… summary. Were there copies there are not?

I don’t know. I don’t think so.

Then I’ll have to…

Yeah, you’ll have to get me some.

Because it hasn’t hardly changed from that time.

No. No, it’s always the same.

This is…

“If mankind doesn’t straighten up, the end is near.”


Incorporating things that George Van Tassel said. And of course, he had face-to-face contact with a space-brother and got many communications after that. But I found out there were groups like that. There were quite a few groups in Michigan and all over the country getting the same information and the same method. Because I had personal contact or knowledge of maybe 6 or 8 or 10 of these groups.

We were in Florida one year—and this was after we quit having meetings—and my mom was at a chiropractor’s office there. She was waiting for my aunt. And she heard the two receptionists/secretary people that worked in the office talking. And they were talking about, “Yeah, and they got a message from Hatonn.” And she was like, [whispers] “Hatonn? You know?” And so she even heard that in a doctor’s office. And then you all had messages from Hatonn for years.

Yes, indeed. In fact, Hatonn is part of the principle of Q’uo… Which I was channeling Q’uo until very recently when I quit because I was having a spinal operation and had taken pain meds. With the pain meds, you don’t really want to channel. So until I get my off the pain medicine, I have to put a stop on the channeling. But I channeled up until 2010. 6 And I will again, as soon as I get through this. But Hatonn of the fourth density, Latwii of the fifth, and Ra of the sixth density are the three that go into Q’uo. So I still communicate with Hatonn regularly. Hatonn’s got that wonderful love energy that you can feel under the vibration and… forget the words… it just feels so good. 7

I think Hatonn was the only one I ever channeled.

It’s a beautiful one to channel. I didn’t channel anybody but Hatonn for a long time too.

Carla, you met Don just after he discovered the Detroit group?

I knew Don before because he was a professor of my boyfriend, who was the guy that played guitar and sang with me—later, my starter husband. So I had met him previously. And I asked Don if I could come to the meetings.

And that was just after he had discovered…

Yeah, I met Don when I was a freshman. This is the beginning of my sophomore year.

Your real connection [with Don] began just as this material comes into the story.

Yeah, it started [inaudible] together.

That’s pretty amazing.

When I was 19.

Hal, when you said Don took your material and digested it in about two weeks, what was his initial response when he got back to you after that?

It’s hard to remember things that far back. But he was very, I think, pretty excited about it… I can’t remember everything he said, but I think he said that this was the glue to put it all together for me.

Oh, he said that?

Mm-hmm. That’s one thing I remember that he said. Because he had been doing all kinds of investigations of various metaphysical things and reincarnation and magic and a whole series of other sources.

And here you come. And you have key in hand.

But I feel that the material we were getting from the space-brothers is not like a planetary’s viewpoint or a solar view—it’s a galactic viewpoint, a universal viewpoint which kind of transcends all the local things you get, like in church, for example.


Did you ever meet Jim Pfefferkorn.

What was that again?

His name is Jim Pfefferkorn.

I don’t think so.

It doesn’t sound familiar.

He’s somebody that would be nice to get a recording or story… When he was Wooded Glen, he gave a talk like you are giving about things that had happened to him during his life back in the 40s… even before the time you’re talking about.

Well, I was never very enthused about speaking in front of large groups. But Don was teaching a class at University of Louisville, and he asked me to come and talk about UFOs to this class. And I told them pretty much the same story about how I got involved. And I had this two-page summary which gave a real rough outline of all the philosophy, that I said it raised a lot more questions than it gave answers. And he passed it around to everybody in the group, and they all had questions from that. And I survived that night.


When you were channeling… When your group was channeling, did the contacts from the Confederation that you brought through settle to the same ones every time? Or would they switch from one entity to another?

The only one I ever channeled was Hatonn. Don Elkins had channeled, I think, channeled several different space-brothers.

I think what Romi meant was did you start with one person and then go to another person…

So different channels?

Sometimes, that happened, yeah.

It would go around.

Sometimes. I remember one night at… when we were where our group started, where we lived in a house in Jeffersontown. Don Elkins was channeling, and the person speaking said, “This time, we are in a craft above your house.” And a couple of the students rushed up and looked up and they didn’t see it. And he was still talking. He said, “Well, if you want to look up now, you may see the craft.” And they went out and said that yes, they did – they saw. One appeared as a bright… it appeared as a pink, kind of reddish light in the sky, and then moved toward the moon. And as it moved, it turned from pink to red to white.


That was kind of typical acceleration view of a UFO. And they came back in, and he’s still talking through Don. And he says, “This time you were able to see our craft.”

[From here on out, Hal shifts from the narrative approach to his story to Q&As and conversation.]

Were the Confederation sources at that time speaking of wanderers?

Yeah. A lot of information like that. They told the group in Michigan that… They said that all of us had volunteered to come here and be involved in this.

And that your origins weren’t of this planet but from elsewhere?

Yeah. Of course, I think all of our origins are probably from other planets.

Sounds familiar. I think we’ve got a few wanderers in here.

It’s fascinating because when I think about it, the United States could not have been the only place in the world where this was happening. But I never heard of other places or contactee groups until I moved to the United States, maybe because the material was easier to publish here or it there was more wider acceptance of it. I heard of UFO encounters around the globe in other countries but never of this kind.

I think the same thing’s probably happening all over the planet.

Where are you from?

Well it used to be Czechoslovakia - Czech Republic now. And when I was a teenager, I read UFO books. And they led eventually to this.

And you became a political…


Political refugee. And the United States took him in. And then he came to our meeting one time and really liked the channeling. Decided that he wanted to come and be part of the channeling group. And he has for a long time, right? From ’92 until now… 20 years.

So you channel too?

He sure tried.

I did try, but I am not able to translate the concepts given into words. I always get stuck at that point.

He gets the first concept or maybe a couple, and then he gets stuck.

And then I drop the ball.

Guys, I’m going to have to [connect with the group in another room via] Skype. I’m sorry. I need to lie down. I’m going to have an operation in a couple of weeks, and I’m not really all that I should be. So I will be with you in spirit. And it’s wonderful to see you.

You too, Carla.

You too.

You just keep right on going, and I will listen to you right there. Thank God for technology, eh?

I was going to say that in the UFO realm, I know that there are very active groups in Europe. And I also know that there are some in the Soviet Union. I have no contact with them, but I’m aware of their existence. So, I think it is a universal phenomenon.

Yeah, but I think that there are some kind of environmental characteristics that could improve this type of contact. In Brazil, we don’t have the right environment, for most of the part, mainly because of the religions that flourished in Brazil. So for instance, we have Spiritism in Brazil, and it [inaudible] to inner-plane entities. So it never goes to ET entities – it’s always inner-plane. So I guess that… I don’t know, maybe here, there’s a higher degree of freedom regarding religious practices. So I guess that’s the point… This kind of communication flourished here in the United States.

That was our essential foundation.


So you do not know of any channelings in Brazil?

No, not of this kind.

What’s their religion there?

Well, it began as a Catholic country. But now, it’s a quite a syncretistic country. We have Spiritism that is quite popular. Candomble. Things that are related somehow to Spiritism and African religions. Some kind of syncretistic kind. But Spiritism has this of protocol that prevents from going beyond what they do now as a channeling.

You mentioned the Confederation sources speaking of the big upcoming change – the terminology that that later became, I don’t know if they were using the same term then, was the “harvest.” Did the Confederation sources then indicate any sort of timeframe for this coming change?

That was one thing we could never pin down. They would say, “Soon.” They’re looking backwards thousands of years. Soon to them is 200 years. But everybody thought that this planetary alignment in 2012 was when all these different sources of prophecy kind of dovetailed looking for something to happen then. But I don’t think too many people expected something instantly to happen.

So many things that are coming into alignment on so many different levels. And I guess it’s like probabilities talked about so much – it’s so central in The Law of One – it’s not known exactly what the response will be and how that translates into a certain space/time or time/space corollary. But I guess we can count on the fact that when enough of the consolidation – that’s a word to use – is there to support the integration of it, it may happen very quickly, maybe a logarithmic…

One of the sources that we got on Coast to Coast was a guest several times—Ed Dames, remote viewer. And he claims he can see all kinds of things in the future. He said some big things were going to happen in 2013, according to his viewpoint. So we’ll have to wait and see it, I guess. He’s still predicting some kind of Earth changes that are not pleasant.

Were people in the ’50s aware of the Mayan calendar end date - December 21st?

Not yet. Not until maybe the last 15 years or something like that.

It hadn’t been discovered yet.

Maybe in the last 10 years.

I think everybody really misunderstood the end of time as the end of age, you know? It’s the end of Pisces going into Aquarius. And I think that, you know, they thought “end of time” rather than “end of age.” I think there’s just a misunderstanding.

Oh yeah, lots of confusion about that, for sure

I think so.

There’s also a lot of disappointment about it too in that people had expectations of being saved. They had that victimhood status, and they felt as though these outside sources would have an influence in their life in a tangible way. And so they had an expectation of being saved or there being something physical that would occur here. And I think in reading different sources of social community on different websites around the internet, a lot of people express disappointment that nothing really happened – they feel as though there was a mistake that was made.

I think it’s just something gradual and not sudden. It’s still happening.

It’s happening in the unseen, maybe. But physical-wise…

But it’s interesting to see how humanity is processing it because there’s such a diverse reaction to the expectation.

Do you ever have the desire to channel again?

Well, I still get conditioning every time I meditate.

Nobody will listen.


I’m sure we would.

I’m just kidding.

I said that if I were to channel again, I’d like to be a trance-channel. Because one of the things I didn’t like about channeling was that the kind that we had was very little control. It was mostly telepathic words and some control and never… And sometimes, it was a little vague – especially questions because if somebody asks a question, my own answer to that would pop into my mind. And I didn’t know whether what I was channeling was influenced by my thinking or not. I’ve always had that little problem especially with questions. And I said I would… If I’m going to channel, I’d like to trance–channel and just be completely out of it—be a machine.

Have you read the trance-channelings that Carla did – The Ra Material?

Pardon me?

Have you read the trance-channeling that Carla and Jim and Don did?

The Ra Material?

The Law of One/The Ra Material?

I don’t think so.

No. We just came across those books.

We will get you a copy for you before you leave. I think you will like it. It’s similar to what you’ve done before.

Are you familiar with any other trance-channels?

Well, not recently. I mean, we had some people in Michigan that were trance-channeling and that came to our group. Mark Probert was one. Another woman – I can’t remember her name – but… Then Clyde Trepanier– the one who was the original channel for our first group meeting… He came to several of our meetings and channeled. He became a trance-channel. And he said he would be out of his body on the other side of the room while he was sitting there channeling.

So those who preform the trance-channeling, were they aware of what had come through them during the trance-channeling?

I think generally speaking they are not aware of it until later when they hear it on the tape.

So was there a discernible difference in the quality of information then that would come through in a trance-channel versus…

Same information.

Same stuff.

Well, didn’t Carla do both?

Oh yeah. In my opinion there’s a difference in the quality.

Well it’s more like the entity’s coming through… Like with the Dick Miller tapes, you could hear Hatonn talking on one of these tapes, his emotion coming through from Hatonn, not Dick Miller. It’s a whole different thing.

Didn’t Mark Probert channel The Nine?

I don’t remember much about it. I went to one public lecture where Mark Probert was channeling, and I can’t remember a whole lot about it.

Was he the one that married Elizabeth Clare Prophet?

That was a different guy.

Wasn’t he channeling Yadda? I just keep in my mind [inaudible] channeling an entity they called or said “Yadda,” and then Carla got her a few times.

I think so, yeah.

And they made a reference that “You need to do research and find that we have come through before.”

Do any of you all channel?

A couple. Carla’s our teacher.

How did you find the reaction of your family or the people that you tried to speak this about when… because this is sort of out in the left-field concept. I was wondering if it was any better or worse than these days.

The kids all grew up around our channeling and meetings.

When he started this in ’55 or so – ’54 or ‘55 – I was like four years old. So it’s the only thing I know.

Not many kids have been raised like that.

That’s right. I was ten at that point. And I never heard anything about channeling except when I got to grade school. Then the kids started talking about Edgar Cayce. But they made jokes about it…. But in my era, that was the only reference I ever heard to someone doing channeling or that kind of stuff.

Well, don’t you think in the 60s when they got love and peace and love movement – that’s all part of the opening up for everybody. And so everything got to be a little more, you know, acceptable.


I would think a lot of hippies were wanderers.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was talking to some friends of mine that I grew up with, and I said, “You know we’ve talked about my philosophy or my family’s philosophy.” And I said, “How many people do you know that have this philosophy?” I said, “You know, back from when we were in high school until now.” And she said, “You’re still the only one.”

That’s kind of sad, isn’t it?

Yeah, they referred to me as their favorite Martian.


But I mean, you know, that’s literally forty-five years, and they don’t know anybody. Of course, probably they’re not looking either.

So you still live in the Louisville area? You have this whole time?

We live [outside of Louisville] out in the country.

And how did you rediscover… how did you [re]make the connection [with Carla and Jim]?

We were listening to one of the Coast-to-Coast tapes. David Wilcock was on there, and he was talking about his book. And somebody called from England, I think, and said something about Carla. And I told my dad. I said, “Rewind that.” And I said, “Is that our Carla? Is that our Carla?”


And we decided it was. And so we got his book and read it. And she was referred to in the book but not a lot. And I told Carla, somebody told us several years ago – and I’m thinking at least ten – that she had passed away – probably when she was very ill one time. And they just thought that she didn’t make it.

Her mother passed away a while back. It may have been a confusion.

Maybe. I don’t know, but we thought she was gone. And so just about two months ago, I was looking online at some of the things that David wrote. And I looked under Carla to see all of the things that she had written. And there she was. And I’m like, “Oh my god! She’s not gone!” And so we got in touch with her.

This kind of worked out in a funny way. I was looking for a place to live out in the country after I retired. I retired in ‘84 – end of ‘84. We ran into a man who was from back in Maryland where I was from. And he knew my father – he had been in my father’s grocery store. And he was in the process of buying acreage and dividing it up and selling it. And he’s the one that had this place [where we live now] nearby a year-round spring with water. Ended up going through various phases, but ended up with 25 acres, and all four of my daughters have a house on the same acreage that I have and five houses there.

That’s great.

But then one daughter moved about five miles away. But we still have a kind of community there – the fifteen of us.

But it seems like things just happen the way they’re supposed to. You know, running into somebody that was from Maryland here that knew his family. And then having exactly what he was looking for. It’s like things happen just the way they’re supposed to.

It’s interesting. This man, he not only… He had this huge farm he was dividing out called Indian River. And he met me out there on a Saturday with a surveyor and let me pick the exact land – the woods, the creek, everything I wanted. And then he financed it for me.

So, it’s almost like that was meant to be to find you a place, we think, at the end of a dead-end road.

We were involved in Eftspan.

Oh, you were? I live out by Eftspan.

Do you?

I live over by P., but we used to live near L. So I knew the people, you know, back around the same time that Jim and Carla were involved with Eftspan.

Michael and Denise Koepper. Steve and Carol Looft.

Anybody remember the Terry guy?



I think so. Big tall guy.

I’m not sure that’s the right last name. Something like [“Gaigle”?]. He was in that group back in the 70s. I remember we were doing some work on incorporating the Eftspan property. And the day was a Super Bowl Sunday, and Terry was coming out to our house in La Grange. And it was very icy. And I had a carport at my house. And I had a truck in the carport, and he was driving in the driveway, and he put on his breaks and started to slide. And his car came, and I jump… I remember I got one hand on his hood and one on my car. And my ankle got between his car and the bumper.

Oh my gosh!

Was that a meeting day?

Well we were… That same night we had a meeting to work on this incorporation stuff. And I was there with my broken ankle. It was on a Sunday, and they couldn’t do anything about it until the next day. I remember things like that.

Yeah, I guess so.


What’s Eftspan stand for? Is that a town? Or is that an acronym?

It was a farm, but I don’t remember anything about the name, do you?

What book is that from?

Carla may remember.

Carla? Carla, can you hear me?


What book is Eftspan from? Where did the name come from?

Oahspe. [pronounced Oh-ah-spee]

Oh, Oahspe. That’s right. The Kosmon Bible.

It’s Children of the Earth.

Children of the Earth, okay. Thanks! We were wondering.

So how are you involved with Eftspan?

I was just there when it started. I think it was supposed to be like a spiritual retreat place?

So, but that was when you were still working. You retired in ’84?

Yeah. About 10 years before.

So, you were living out there? Or…

No. Nobody ever lived there, that I know of. It was just woods and…


So a place you could go to get out to the country and…

Believe it or not, there were kids staying in the barn for about three years.

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. There were people living in the barn and…

Yeah, a lot of plastic over the windows.

They’d have parties and meetings and things out there, is what I remember.

So you knew of it at the time too?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, that’s how I met Don and Carla was I knew the people that were Eftspan because we were in the same food-buying club together. And we also formed a community group. We’d go around on Wednesdays to members’ homes and we’d do whatever work they had to do and eat some food and then we’d sit around and talk. And Michael and Denise were members of that group too, so I met them and they told me about the group in Louisville. And I went up to meet Don and Carla in ’78 on Douglass Boulevard.

Michael and Denise were still going to the meetings at Carla’s?

Yeah. They weren’t going every Sunday, but they would go up about once a month. So we got a ride with them. And we started going - a friend of mine. He and I would go up every Sunday night.

There were a lot of people that went through there. But it’s that same kind of thing we’ve talked about earlier about spiritual communities—that there’s a lot of turnover and people coming and going.

Now did you ever come to the meetings in Louisville?


At Carla’s. But not at our house?

No. No, I don’t know that… We didn’t know Carla before Jim, I guess. We came out here because of Jim when Jim moved out to Kentucky. So…

When did you first come to a meeting here or in Louisville?

Well, not until…

I remember you guys coming over to Watterson Trail, and brought the kids over. And Don gave Wade a sock full of coins. I remember that.

Yeah, and Don really liked our kids. And he normally didn’t like kids.

I know. He just took a shine to your kids, though.

But one time, you did channeling out at the cabin. Do your member that? I came to that.


So that was my first experience with channeling.

Yeah, I remember when I left, you instigated a going away party for me with the ruse that it was another community… plays [inaudible] Annie and Warfield Clay’s house. Like around their lake. And then I headed out to Oregon… Briefly.

You were in Colorado before the Oregon experience?


You went there before Black Hawk was in business?

Yeah. ‘71 and ‘72. And I discovered that Delores Cannon uses the same state of consciousness that my teacher taught me 40 years ago to get in touch with people’s higher selves and help them heal. She calls it the “somnambulistic state.” And my teacher called it “the preconscious” - you go through it on the way into sleep, and you go through it on the way out of sleep. And it’s like a pure carrier wave. And you a can infuse information on it – you can transmit or receive. And she uses it to help people get in touch with their higher self and discover why they are sick or injured or whatever and help them, if the lesson’s learned, then to be healed.


Yeah! I didn’t know that until I got on her website. You know, I didn’t read the books that Larry sent us. But I checked on the website, and that was the Wikipedia part – the quick and easy thumbnail sketch.


So which teacher are you talking about, Lingo?

Yeah, Lingo.

I still have that information that you gave me.

Do you really? I’ve lost all of that too.

Well, I’ve got it if you want it.

There’s a bunch of stuff on the website by him. A lot of students have written about him.

In fact, I still have the conspiracy information you gave me.

Boy, you’ve got a bunch.

Well, I’ve just have been doing some cleaning, and I just found all that stuff recently.

Yeah, that’s wild.

I’ve got a few of the Cosmic Awareness Speaks publications.

Yeah, I’ve got that… Some of it. Yeah, you have that?

I’ve got some of it. A little bit.

Eric gave me a lot of that stuff too.

Yeah, that was the group that I went out to in Oregon.

I think I was writing away for that and getting it maybe [inaudible]. It was just threads interweaving on some level.

I find that interesting because I just discovered them and signed up for their newsletters. And I learned… It was so interesting that… It’s such a small world that Jim was actually a part of that group at that time. And it’s really fascinating.

Vicky T, the correspondence secretary, is still there, remembers my birthday and wedding anniversary every year for 31 years.

We were in touch now and then. We went to the… they always had a friendship gathering somewhere in the country every year with people that subscribe in that area could come and meet them and have a channeling and so forth.

So, you all, I see that some of you all are married. How do your all’s families deal with your philosophy?

Can we refer them to you for…




My husband is not interested on a conscious level, but yet I know there’s a deep connection. And I highly respect that each has to find their own way and make their own way. And there’s a way to reconcile and live – it requires our autonomy… it’s strengthening of a loving autonomy, for sure. And I think it’s part of… I see it as part of my lessons in growth to learn through that.

But you probably found the philosophy after you were with him.



So it’s… It works out.

My family – that is siblings, parents – kind of shrug their shoulders and say, “Whatever makes you happy.”

And I’ll add that too, that there’s… even though my husband has absolutely no interest, he’s very happy… very fair-minded and equality-minded in that sense. And so that’s helpful.

I’d say the same experience for me.

I have a couple members of our family, too, that have no interest.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mine doesn’t support it at all really. She refers to me taking event trips as going to see “your people” – if that’s any indication. Well, she says it in a lighthearted and jokingly way, because she’s a very lighthearted person. But it’s just funny that she separates herself from these concepts to the extent of making…

So she doesn’t share your philosophy?

No. And I don’t know anyone around me who shares it either. My support is in this room right now.


Not interrupt anyone else that would have replied also, but to mention momentarily that the situation of the wanderer is often one of isolation and loneliness and not having others nearby to share. It’s such a common pattern that it was a driving reason for us and for Carla to conceive of a community website that we built - that Steve right there actually built-built - called where wanderers the world over convene and discuss in the forums. But yeah, it’s a very common pattern. Including among us.

So in part, this is… these are some of our family here.




Well, my wife has read the material. She actually read all of the books, but there’s no particular interest in participating in the meetings or taking up afterwards. And her main concern for me was that I was going nuts at first.

That’s typical.

After we were married, she thought that I was about to lose it and… you know. But I kept bringing a pay check home, and that pretty much solved it.


And so she’s now reconciled the fact that this is part of what I do. She’s curious when I come down here, but she hasn’t gotten the charisma to actually show up… maybe someday. I hope so.

So most of you all don’t live in Kentucky?

I do.

I do.



Roman does.

Few of us are here. But most of the people are from somewhere else and…

Brazil, Sweden…

My mom says it’s a sect because I’m going to the U.S. But she does it jokingly. She’s a wanderer herself – just very strong defense mechanism. And I brought the concept of Law of One to her and that all is one – there are aliens and she is one of them. And she’s like, “Uh-huh. Uh-huh.”


She’s okay with that, actually, now. But still like a strong defense mechanism. “Oh, so you’re going to your sect?” And I’m like, “Yeah. I’m going to my sect.”

Your people.

My people.

After I discovered it, I shared it with my mom because we’re really good friends in spiritual seeking. And she’s very much in tune with it.

That’s good.

Where do you live in Virginia?

In central Virginia – Lynchburg.

We came from Cumberland, Maryland.

Oh, okay. That’s a beautiful area.

Virginia, North Carolina, Illinois, Tennessee, Louisville, Virginia, Illinois… I think that completes it.

Carbondale, specifically.


Murfreesboro, yeah.

Well you’re in Murfreesboro?

Yes. We got tired of the big city life.

[inaudible banter between Jim and Steve T]

She’s smart enough to know what the concepts entail, so. Just a question of bringing your belief along with understanding.

I guess my sisters are the only ones that grew up in it.

My kids are 13 and 17…

So your wife’s good with it?

Pretty much. She’s more of a Q’uo person than a Ra person. But she’s still… My daughter’s more Q’uo and my son’s more Ra.


But yeah, when they were little and asking why the sky was blue and those kinds of things, I just kind of had to make a choice. And I decided to answer based on the best information I had – which was this information. And so they just… for a while, they didn’t know that it was anything out of the ordinary. And then, we went to a church where the priest liked to have a family circle and encourage questions from the children. And at that point we finally had to start explaining the differences in what we talked about and what other people might think.

My kids grew up with it too. And when they were in school, one of them wanted to go to church with their friends. And most of their friends went to the same church. It was private school that they went to. And the church was Southeast Christian. And so they would have these little discussions. And my son would always say, “Oh no, I believe in reincarnation.” So you can imagine how that went at Southeast Christian.


What I’m scared of is by introducing them to such concept to younger children – my daughter is six – is that she will get bullied by other kids. And I know she talks about aliens, she talks about Ra, she draws pyramids. And I’m like, “Oh… Stop?”

Well, it doesn’t have to be based on Q’uo or an entity. It can just be a philosophy of caring and unconditional love. It doesn’t have to be, you know, a label. You just have unconditional love and caring for others. And you know, set an example the way you live. And it doesn’t really have to be labeled.

But when she asks questions, I don’t lie. I tell the truth. And that’s the problem.

Where you got your information and things like that?

Yeah. But that’s my worry that she will get bullied.

Well that was kind of what was happening to us when my sisters were growing up. They were being accused of being devil worshippers.

What about your children? How are they adjusting to the fact that…

They’re very well-adjusted.

Are they homeschooled?

My son is now taking classes at the community college.

How old is he?

17. They’ve done a homeschool co-op where one day a week they go with other families and take classes together. And they do lots of activities like karate and ballet and stuff. So they’re… they can pass for normal.


I have a unique challenge right now because from my first marriage, I have two daughters who are being raised very traditional Catholics. And they’re coming to me with esoteric questions – the higher questions of existence. And like Lana says, I don’t want to lie to them. And I want to speak my truth. I feel I have the right to pass it on if I want to to my children, but I don’t have the majority of their time. And so, it becomes a struggle of how do I balance, you know, teaching my truth which as opposed to what they’re used to and what they’re being conditioned to believe. And so, it’s a different problem in and of itself that I’m struggling with all of the time.

How do they accept you and…

Well, I have to… my compromise is that I veil it in Christ-Consciousness. So I sort of can straddle Christianity with the New Age concepts. So veiling it in Christ-Consciousness helps me emphasize the living in unconditional love components – which I feel underscores all of these teachings in some degree. And so it’s a little easier for me to talk from that level.

It’s in the Bible, too.

Yeah. Exactly. So there’s some overlap there in different ways.

In Sweden, Christ and the bible and Christianity is as bad as New Age. It’s an Atheist society. So as soon as you talk about any kind of religion or spirituality, you get bullied.

Probably the kids chose that to learn both sides.

As part of their incarnational agreements?



Probably it’s the path they chose to be able to, you know, see both sides.

Well you know what, I was going to say something interesting. My dad was born in 1915.

And he died a few years ago at 92. We had never spoken of any New Age things at all. But when he was about 4 or 5 years before he died, I was talking with him at the assisted living home where he was. And he said, “You know there’s reincarnation, don’t you?” He just tells me that. This is out of the blue from a guy that was the treasurer of the Methodist church where he was and always been respectable citizen and an accountant, you know, very methodical. But he tells me that.

He says, “You know, we’ve been men, we’ve been women.” All kinds of stuff. And I thought, “Wow.” You know, it’s just something he didn’t feel he could talk to me about. And the reason was that, well obviously, it’s a tough thing to tell your kids when you’re raised in a traditional place like Houston, Texas, you know?

My grandmother… Do you remember the movie K-Pax with Kevin Spacey? I think it was that movie. Before she passed away, she was watching it. And that movie deals with the concept of somebody being from outside of Planet Earth and then coming in as a human. And she asked me after the movie finished - she had recently watched it – like, what I thought about that concept. And it was kind of like… pregnant. It was loaded. And I was too guarded. I just kind of dismissed it even though I believed in… I had already encountered The Law of One, I think, at that point. And to this day, I wish I would have taken that opportunity. It just seemed like there was something in her that wanted my genuine response.

Is she still alive?

No. No, unfortunately.

My husband’s family was always trying to save me.

Carla’s brother is always trying to save her too.

I told them I’ve never been lost.


Classic response.

They don’t like it when you say that. They don’t like that.


Sometime, you ought to try driving somewhere under Carla’s directions – you’ll get lost.


I use my GPS.


Mm-hmm. Yeah, my kids don’t know any other philosophy. But they seem to do just fine. Of course, they’re not young anymore. They’re 27 and 31. And they’re not bothered at all by other people being different in any way. And they don’t seem to feel the necessity to explain themselves, you know?

They’re pretty much okay with just who they are and doesn’t seem to matter to other people. Although I have had a few of the really orthodox friends of theirs, you know… They shy away after a while because they don’t conform to their way. Although they’re still friends, they just aren’t as close. But it, you know, other than… of the few that are really orthodox, I don’t think they’ve had many problems.

Well, I think it’s going to be alright. But it’s just during those school years, I want to kind of protect them a little bit. So I don’t know what to do or how much to talk about. But of course, she asks now. She’s six, and she’s throwing out questions everywhere.

Well, when a UFO lands on the White House lawn, we’ll be okay.


Yeah. Until then, we have a problem.

We were told way back when, when you meditate and you think of things like this, one thing you develop is a discernment of what is true and what isn’t. And you almost feel right.

Yes. It’s an integration of thought and feeling, isn’t it? Yes.

I point out that just by virtue of being human beings, we’re pretty much stuck in a situation where whatever it is that we live our lives by is essentially mythology. And whether it’s the mythology of The Law of One or the Christian mythology or the atheist mythology - it’s still mythology. So pick your favorite, basically.

It’s a set of symbols for the infinite.


I was introduced to all this material like 60 years ago. And everything I’ve read and heard since then - I keep researching all the time - everything reinforces it. Nothing detracts from it.

Yeah, yeah.

Same for us. We are here because The Law of One is at the center of our own… The Confederation philosophy is at the center of our own seeking. But, you know, we read far and wide, and it all fits into that framework that the Confederation laid out.

And you came to it from books that you read. He came to it from a lecture that he heard. I grew up with it, I mean, you know. Different people come different ways, but basic philosophy is the same. And I mean it, it’s quite simple, you know. Unconditional love and non-judgment. And, I mean, it pretty much covers it all.

The principles are very inclusive. And so we can go from one faith to another…

Right. It works in any religion.

…And have that ring of truth.

One of our messages said that man is complex and God is simplicity itself.

Yes. That’s a…

A really good way to say it.

… Statement. Yeah.

As you said… We were talking in the kitchen, and you were just saying now… There’s many paths to the Creator - many which don’t involve the Confederation philosophy. But those of us here love and have passion for that particular path - the Confederation philosophy. And we feel that it gives us sort of meaning, helps us to see, helps empower us, etc. And you were instrumental in making that path happened because - prior to what happened in Detroit, you connecting with Don, what Don did with it - this particular path did not exist. And I can’t think of a path I would… A philosophy I would rather work with more than that Confederation philosophy.

I’m really happy I could be of some use…


And maybe help some people. That’s one thing Carla is done a whole lot more.

He just helped Carla get started. She’s done it all.

Oh yeah. They are absolutely part of that picture.

I wouldn’t underestimate the importance, the value, the beauty of the lives that you live.

Yeah. You were without the philosophy.

Without getting involved in something in particular… Some particular group… Just…

Some of the comments we got were interesting in our group communication… Some of them were somewhat personal. They said, “This group would have started much sooner if the instigator of the group had followed his guidance.”

And that was you?



What guidance did you…

Well, I tried various things. I tried starting a business - a couple of different businesses. I was interested mostly in the automotive industry. And my mother said, “You have this cousin who works for Ford. You should go up there and see about a job there.”

Well this was several years before I actually did that. Then in ‘54, I actually did that. I found out by my second cousin, that he was the chief engineer of the tractor division at Ford. It’s a pretty responsible job. And when I went to see him, he said… Well, I went to his house one night. His mother and my relative are a lot closer, and that’s how we got involved with going to see him. He recommended I take this Ford Motor Company course rather than go to regular night school where you work and go to school at the same time.

Went to see him the next day, and he said, “Put in an application and say you want to a job with the… trying to think now… something “writer B.” And I did, and they said, “Okay. We will get in contact with you if anything comes up.” And I said, “Well, I’m supposed to see Harold B. – that was his name. And the doors opened up, and I see him. And he said, “I don’t have anything here right now, but if nothing else I’ll put you out in the field driving a tractor until something opens up.”

They were going to send me down to see so-and-so in the truck engineering. And I went down there to talk to them and started to work in truck engineering.

Man, it’s pretty much door to there.

Thirty-one and a half years working for Ford.

Yeah. So you finally made the decision [and you felt] that the universe made it happen.

Yeah. It does. And that’s why, you know, who you’re supposed to run into and where you’re supposed to get your information – it just shows up.

The initial message we got – the message for a new group – one of the things they said was that nothing happens by chance.

Yeah, when you get a sense that we are all part of one being - that we are all The Creator - then there’s a great intelligence beyond the human.

  1. Formally, the Detroit Group became known as Man, Consciousness and Understanding of Detroit, or simply, Understanding of Detroit. 

  2. Not described very well here, what happened was that Walt Rogers channeled a Confederation source for the group, presumably Hatonn. The gist of the message was “Why aren’t you speaking our words? You are receiving them, but you are not saying them.” This opened the doorway to the ability for members of the circle to channel thereafter. 

  3. Eftspan was named after a term in the book Oahspe. The group formed as a 501(c)(3) light center with land near St. Francis, KY. 

  4. Unfortunately we have no record of this channeling , audio or transcript, that we’re aware of. 

  5. There is some discrepancy with the dates recorded elsewhere. In the interviews for Tilting at Windmills, on the L/L Research website, and elsewhere in the records, Carla reported that Don met Hal Price in 1961. Don then visited the Detroit group in the same year and launched his own “meditation” group (which Carla joined as the 13th member) in January, 1962. 

  6. April 9, 2011, to be exact. Unfortunately, April 9th was also the final channeling of Carla’s life, as her body never healed the wound from the spinal surgery. She would pass on April 1, 2015, just over two years after this meeting with Hal. 

  7. “…forget the words…”: Carla is saying that beyond whatever the love/wisdom contained in Hatonn’s words, the feel of the vibration itself is wonderful.